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Post by megop on Aug 5, 2014 1:30:59 GMT
You only have to look at the media to see reports of people being labelled as such because they dare to disagree that Israel is blameless. It's offensive to be accused of being such,as offensive as being called a racist to me anyhow. ------- I find this an interesting statement Dotty, truly. Is it really that the media is labeling? I don't think so. I think that is how some are perceiving though. I'm not seeing a ginormous groundswell of persons who are disturbed at innocents being lost in this conflict, having some scarlet letter placed upon them to walk around with. No. Are there reports of some having that opinion? Yes. And the issue is what? ? I think that some people (not saying you) can't handle being disagreed with by other's opinions. And if you read back on this thread, it's vice versa for some as well. Again, to me, there is no right or wrong here, OTHER than the fact of looking at which side has the motivation to keep this conflict going.
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Post by BeckyTech on Aug 5, 2014 1:35:56 GMT
I do still take issue with Israel firing back. Destroy the tunnels. Invade via the ground and take out Hamas leaders. But do NOT bomb buildings that have civilians in it. So you don't want Israel to fire back when they are being fired upon, but you want the U.S. to fire on Hamas? Doesn't make sense at all. As to taking out the Hamas leaders, but not the buildings that have civilians in them, I must remind you that Hamas leaders live in buildings with civilians in them on purpose. To act as human shields. Go to the 57 second mark in this video:
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on Aug 5, 2014 1:36:11 GMT
I'm wondering why a Canadian is calling for the US to intervene? If you want military intervention from the outside, why aren't you calling for the Canadian military to overthrow Hamas, cycworker? I think I did say international forces. If I didn't, I meant to. If it were necessary and quite likely to work, I'd send in Canadian troops, too. Now if greater military minds than mine - of which there are many - honestly don't think that'll work, then no. But we have to do SOMETHING. It has to stop. I'm tired of innocent people getting caught in the crossfire. No side is any better than the other. Once you reach a certain level of political power, you're not really acting for any interest other than your own. I truly believe that. The leaders in Croatia & Serbia and the rest of the former Yugoslavia weren't really doing what they did for 'the good of their people.' And I'm not sure I believe the elites on either side of this dispute are, either. I'm starting to think they're all power hungry and corrupt.
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on Aug 5, 2014 1:50:41 GMT
The way to take out Hamas may be to assassinate them individually. They can't stay in their forever. I don't know. I just know that this isn't working.
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Post by megop on Aug 5, 2014 1:59:58 GMT
The way to take out Hamas may be to assassinate them individually.
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Wow. That's all I have. This sort of action by anyone, would throw us into WW3 most certainly.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 2:12:01 GMT
And how would you tell the Hamas terrorists from the civilians with whom they live? They don't wear signs. They blend in. That's why they're so successful in promoting terror, you don't know when or where they'll strike. If they could be assassinated without harming the civilian population, I'm pretty sure Israel would have already done so long ago.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 5, 2014 3:46:08 GMT
I'm not fragile at all, I just don't appreciate anyone resorting to telling people to fuck off. I have no clue who the poster is or what their backstory is, all I have to judge people on is what they write. If you really didn't have a clue regarding I-95, it just shows you are only interested in reading information that validates your opinion. Since I-95 shared her current experience more than once both here and on the other Israel thread (which I know you participated in early on as well), you're choosing to dismiss her since she is supporting Israel. We get it- you don't support Israel. But really, take time to read what someone actually living in the place where the rockets are aimed has shared. And to accuse I-95 of possibly pretending she's living in Israel? You deserve whatever reaction from her she gives. Unreal.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 5, 2014 3:59:00 GMT
No, the US won't intervene. Not sure how they should at this point, but I know under this administration, it's highly unlikely.
I don't think taking out Hamas will solve the crisis. Palestinians chose Hamas leadership. They were upset after they felt the PLO sold them out when Arafat entered into the peace accord with Israel. I think an outside group trying to take out Hamas will only enrage the already violent Palestinians and turn moderate Palestinians into the type who will call for Jihad.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 4:05:32 GMT
Jamieson,
I understand where you're coming from. But, imagine living in a war zone (and she really is!) and having bombs and rockets going off over your head all day long. Then, having to watch people constantly criticize what your country is doing to protect you from the people who are attacking your country and who would love nothing more than to wipe your family and everyone else you know off the map.
Yes, she did use bad language. And as much as I hate bad language, I understand why she did.
When a topic affects you personally, it can cause you to react in ways that you wouldn't normally react. I know that's the case with me! It's happened to me on the board many times.
I support Israel unequivocally, but we each have a different perspective. And I can only speak for myself, but I'm not judging you for questioning Israel's actions.
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Post by lucyg on Aug 5, 2014 5:05:47 GMT
I'd be unhappy if you locked the thread. I think a lot of useful information has transpired here. Yes, people are disagreeing, but isn't that what we do on NSBR threads? This one does not involve a one sided pile on of a single individual, it does not contain much in the way of bad language or vituperative prose. Like all major areas of dispute, when the time is right it will either die a natural death, or we'll all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. If people don't like the thread, they should quit reading, or posting, but for it to be locked or deleted is censorship. Especially since it hasn't risen (or sunk, depending on how you look at it) to a screaming bitchfest. While it's still bordering on civil, you should let it run its course. IMHO. Well, there are two more pages to read at this point, so I guess the thread never got locked. I just want to say I think it would be a terrible precedent to start locking or deleting threads just because some people are sick of looking at them or think they are no longer productive. I think those drastic steps should be reserved for the most serious situations. thank you for not deleting, admin.
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Post by I-95 on Aug 5, 2014 5:15:52 GMT
Jamieson said:
Let's get this straight, you believe it's OK for you to post flagrant insults like the one above, but you're offended if I call you an idiot for doing it? You throw insults my way, do not be at all surprised when I throw them back at you.
This type of post adds nothing to the discussion. It's just a desire to garner attention, especially when it wasn't you I told to f off.
Yes, that's a two way street. Others can judge you by what you write too.
You have no clue whether I'm in Israel, or Pittsburgh? Perhaps you should read the threads on Israel instead of making snide remarks and then pretending you're above all that. I have been a Pea for close to 14 years, I can't imagine why I would now choose to build an elaborate fantasy about living in Israel. Long time Peas would be all over that in a heartbeat. I can also tell you that in those 14 years I have probably dropped the f bomb once before, out of some 20,000 posts. I don't do it lightly either. I rarely respond to insults, but if you push me hard enough, then I'll tell you exactly what I think, in terms that you can understand, and for that I make absolutely no apology. On this, and the other Israel thread, I have done my best to answer questions, share my thoughts on the situation here, and managed to ignore the posts that insult me, and my country....except for one....and it wasn't even you, but for some reason you have decided to take up the cause. You have managed to slide the f word into your posts 3x as often as I have. Give it up. If you have something intelligent to share, by all means add your thoughts to the thread, but if all you have to say is 'Ooh, I-95 said fuck', then I think we've all got it. We are clear on your thoughts about that. Now, for the sake of everyone, move on.
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on Aug 5, 2014 5:56:02 GMT
No, the US won't intervene. Not sure how they should at this point, but I know under this administration, it's highly unlikely. I don't think taking out Hamas will solve the crisis. Palestinians chose Hamas leadership. They were upset after they felt the PLO sold them out when Arafat entered into the peace accord with Israel. I think an outside group trying to take out Hamas will only enrage the already violent Palestinians and turn moderate Palestinians into the type who will call for Jihad. You may well be right. I'm just exceedingly frustrated with the situation at this point.
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anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
Posts: 7,402
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
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Post by anniebygaslight on Aug 5, 2014 6:03:39 GMT
I'd be unhappy if you locked the thread. I think a lot of useful information has transpired here. Yes, people are disagreeing, but isn't that what we do on NSBR threads? This one does not involve a one sided pile on of a single individual, it does not contain much in the way of bad language or vituperative prose. Like all major areas of dispute, when the time is right it will either die a natural death, or we'll all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. If people don't like the thread, they should quit reading, or posting, but for it to be locked or deleted is censorship. Especially since it hasn't risen (or sunk, depending on how you look at it) to a screaming bitchfest. While it's still bordering on civil, you should let it run its course. IMHO. Well, there are two more pages to read at this point, so I guess the thread never got locked. I just want to say I think it would be a terrible precedent to start locking or deleting threads just because some people are sick of looking at them or think they are no longer productive. I think those drastic steps should be reserved for the most serious situations. thank you for not deleting, admin. Another one here who thanks you for not locking/deleting the thread, admin. I tend not to venture to post in this type of thread very often, but I always read them avidly, and I for one have learned a heck of a lot from this particular thread. It provides a fascinating window on the international perspective of ordinary people on this matter, and in years to come may be seen as a valuable documentary on how things were perceived at the time. If readers don't like the content, or are offended by the words of others on such an emotive subject, I suggest that they have the option to look away.
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Post by lucyg on Aug 5, 2014 6:04:50 GMT
I agree this thread has a lot of useful information on it. Things went downhill quickly with the "fuck you" and "idiot" remarks from I-95. Nothing derails a conversation like name-calling. And yet apparently you have no problem with the words genocide, indiscriminate killing, massacre, and apartheid that have been tossed around on these threads, at I-95 in particular. You're being ridiculous. If that's not considered name-calling.
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Post by I-95 on Aug 5, 2014 6:31:32 GMT
The US is surely not going to jump into this fire!! The American people are tired of their kids getting killed in some foreign land over things that have next to nothing to do with America. I think this one's a non-starter.
As for UN forces. They are not a military force, as in an army. They certainly carry big scary weapons, but they rarely, if ever, are put into a country until a peace agreement has been reached and signed. They are there to make sure it stays that way. They are not allowed to engage in combat unless it's to defend themselves. They do patrol borders....for instance, where we live in the very Northern part of Israel, I can literally spit into Lebanon. Our property fence is the border. Now, while it is the border of Israel and Lebanon, there is a 'security zone' that extends for a couple of kilometers into Lebanon, and UN peacekeepers patrol this area...mostly to make sure that Hezbollah doesn't attempt to cross into Israel. They would notify Israeli forces if an attempt was made, but they, themselves, would not be engaging in battle with anyone trying to breach the fence. They would not involve themselves in controlling the border crossing between Israel and Gaza...where the trucks are checked for contraband. That is not their job, nor are they interested in doing that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 7:32:33 GMT
Becky -I can't recall saying I was " absolutely horrified" at the blockade.I fully realize why it's there. What I have suggested is that it could be a possibility that it could be manned by an International UN peacekeeping force. Not because I wanted or wish for a free for all and a free pass for Hamas but because it's one of their conditions on ending the firing. It was just a suggestion to bring this to some sort of a peaceful end. Hamas stop the missiles and Israel agrees to relax their control of the border and let a neutral entity control them such as a peacekeeping force.. Israel and the Egypt border both. I was only a suggestion,a thinking out loud moment in the search for an answer but the post was dismissed by some because the UN is useless among other remarks. I understand, but I still go back to the original reason it exists: the Palestinians have a culture of hate against the Jews/Israel and will continue to try to kill them until that culture of hate is dismantled. Until that happens, a blockade of some type administered by someone will need to be in place. Is that something we can both agree on?Hamas makes a lot of unrealistic demands because they know they won't be realized. Why? Because their overarching goal is simply the destruction of Israel. I'm sure we can. I've already suggested that much earlier in the thread. But others poo poo'd the suggestion because the UN is useless! It has to start piecemeal with a bit of give and take on both sides.....that as far as I can see is the only way. Otherwise we're all going to be discussing the same thing in years to come.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 7:40:53 GMT
Becky -I can't recall saying I was " absolutely horrified" at the blockade.I fully realize why it's there. What I have suggested is that it could be a possibility that it could be manned by an International UN peacekeeping force. Not because I wanted or wish for a free for all and a free pass for Hamas but because it's one of their conditions on ending the firing. It was just a suggestion to bring this to some sort of a peaceful end. Hamas stop the missiles and Israel agrees to relax their control of the border and let a neutral entity control them such as a peacekeeping force.. Israel and the Egypt border both. I was only a suggestion,a thinking out loud moment in the search for an answer but the post was dismissed by some because the UN is useless among other remarks. Why do you think Hamas wants the UN to keep the border instead of Israel? What a random question! I don't know that they do. Do you? I didn't say anything about Hamas wanting the UN. Where did you get that idea from? It isn't up to Hams to dictate WHO will control the border if and when this ever becomes part of the peace negotiations.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 7:56:01 GMT
Some posters on this thread are obviously not fully aware of what a UN peacekeeping force actually is. Here's a brief run down. As of 30 June 2014, our workforce in the field consisted of:
85,874 serving troops and military observers
12,197 police personnel;
5,323 international civilian personnel (30 June 2014);
11,954 local civilian staff (30 June 2014);
2,015 UN Volunteers.
122 countries contributed military and police personnel.
The UN does not have its own military force; it depends on contributions from Member States.
In addition to maintaining peace and security, peacekeepers are increasingly charged with assisting in political processes; reforming judicial systems; training law enforcement and police forces; disarming and reintegrating former combatants; supporting the return of internally displaced persons and refugees.
link
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
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Location: USA
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Aug 5, 2014 11:53:41 GMT
Some posters on this thread are obviously not fully aware of what a UN peacekeeping force actually is. [snip] In addition to maintaining peace and security, peacekeepers are increasingly charged with assisting in political processes; reforming judicial systems; training law enforcement and police forces; disarming and reintegrating former combatants; supporting the return of internally displaced persons and refugees.
I heard a guy interviewed on NPR a few years ago who argued that the American military is aces at combat, but stinks at peacekeeping. This was in context of why the US occupation of Iraq was so fraught. I think he wrote a book on the subject. My memory is fuzzy; he definitely discussed the UN peacekeeping forces, but I THINK he also said that other countries (specifically NATO members) devote more time to peacekeeping training than we do. It was an intriguing subject - one I had never considered. Carry on.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 12:37:15 GMT
The UN peacemaking force ( as in the military part) is made up of military personnel from all of the NATO members, US included. But rather than be under the direction of each individual country they're under the direction of a UN designated commander. So from that aspect of things they're a neutral force for a particular mission wherever that may be. They all wear Blue Beret's to distinguish the difference.
Not because they just wear blue beret but it helps for both sides to be able to distinguish that they are a neutral force. There to keep the peace. So the hostility isn't usually an issue because they are not associated to one particular country. One side wouldn't feel they favour the other. Something that could be a possibility if individual countries were involved on their own.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 12:41:23 GMT
Why do you think Hamas wants the UN to keep the border instead of Israel? What a random question! I don't know that they do. Do you? I didn't say anything about Hamas wanting the UN. Where did you get that idea from? It isn't up to Hams to dictate WHO will control the border if and when this ever becomes part of the peace negotiations. Not a random question at all. You were suggesting a UN-monitored border instead of an Israeli one. It is one of Hamas' demands for a lasting truce. I simply asked you to consider why they would make that part of their demands. Do they really want peace or a weak border with Israel that they can use to conduct more terror attacks? Lots of people are saying that Israel should just give in for the sake of peace, but allowing another entity to control the border seems like a recipe for disaster to me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 13:39:05 GMT
What a random question! I don't know that they do. Do you? I didn't say anything about Hamas wanting the UN. Where did you get that idea from? It isn't up to Hams to dictate WHO will control the border if and when this ever becomes part of the peace negotiations. Not a random question at all. It is one of Hamas' demands for a lasting truce. I simply asked you to consider why they would make that part of their demands. Do they really want peace or a weak border with Israel that they can use to conduct more terror attacks? Lots of people are saying that Israel should just give in for the sake of peace, but allowing another entity to control the border seems like a recipe for disaster to me. I'm sorry you really need to start reading post with some level of comprehension. It's a SUGGESTION a random OPINION as in idle chat among others, nothing more nothing less. How the hell do I know why they make it part of their demand? But I think it's pretty obvious as to why any country would like the control of their own borders don't you? Would you like Mexico or Canada to control yours, don't think so somehow! It's already one of their demands. Israel won't agree with it ( can't say I blame them if it's Hamas that will control the Palestinian side, but that's beside the point). They want the borders free because according to them the action is suppressing the economic growth of their country,suppressing the movement of Palestinian citizens, just two reason for you to be getting on with. The demands are clearly laid out in a number of reports out there ... I haven't just made them up..... they are out there for everyone to read.Is that clear enough for you. It was a purely random suggestion of having the UN there to a question further up the thread as what might work if it was tried. The UN is a neutral organization which might be acceptable for both sides. Do you actually know anything about what is happening there or are you purposely trying to be obtuse? ETA and you obviously don't know how a UN monitored border works if this quote is anything to go by and it isn't what I said. {You were suggesting a UN-monitored border instead of an Israeli one}.
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Post by jonda1974 on Aug 5, 2014 13:45:41 GMT
If threads start being moderated and locked. I personally wouldn't participate anymore.
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Post by katieanna on Aug 5, 2014 13:50:54 GMT
I'm still way back on Page 7...but I think this bears repeating...
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Post by BeckyTech on Aug 5, 2014 14:03:38 GMT
I understand, but I still go back to the original reason it exists: the Palestinians have a culture of hate against the Jews/Israel and will continue to try to kill them until that culture of hate is dismantled. Until that happens, a blockade of some type administered by someone will need to be in place. Is that something we can both agree on?Hamas makes a lot of unrealistic demands because they know they won't be realized. Why? Because their overarching goal is simply the destruction of Israel. I'm sure we can. I've already suggested that much earlier in the thread. But others poo poo'd the suggestion because the UN is useless! It has to start piecemeal with a bit of give and take on both sides.....that as far as I can see is the only way. Otherwise we're all going to be discussing the same thing in years to come. Eureka! Something we can agree on! I feel like we've been talking cross-wise for so long it's nice to feel like we are actually discussing an aspect of this topic. I'm well aware of the UN Peacekeeping forces: who comprises them and their purpose. We can politely disagree on their deployment at the border, although I truly do get your point about the give and take necessary to any peace negotiations. But perhaps we can extend the polite discussion further because there is a question I truly would like answered. In that interview you linked the professor mentioned Israel as an apartheid state. Is that something you agree with? If so, can you tell me in your own words why you think that to be true? Because I don't think that is a claim with any factual basis and simply doesn't stand up to the light of day. And just because this thread is getting so long, here are my previous comments about it: Your response?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 14:28:08 GMT
dottyscrapper, there's no need to get huffy with me.
I asked for your opinion. I thought that's what we were doing, sharing our opinions. Was it really necessary to question my reading comprehension skills when your previous comment suggested that you were in favor of a UN-controlled border if it meant peace?
This is your comment to which I was referring (and actually quoted earlier): "What I have suggested is that it could be a possibility that it could be manned by an International UN peacekeeping force. Not because I wanted or wish for a free for all and a free pass for Hamas but because it's one of their conditions on ending the firing. It was just a suggestion to bring this to some sort of a peaceful end. Hamas stop the missiles and Israel agrees to relax their control of the border and let a neutral entity control them such as a peacekeeping force."
From your last comment, it seems like we do agree that no country would want another entity in charge of its border. I'm sure from the quote above, you can see why I asked you further for your opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 16:28:10 GMT
dottyscrapper, there's no need to get huffy with me. I asked for your opinion. I thought that's what we were doing, sharing our opinions. Was it really necessary to question my reading comprehension skills when your previous comment suggested that you were in favor of a UN-controlled border if it meant peace? This is your comment to which I was referring (and actually quoted earlier): "What I have suggested is that it could be a possibility that it could be manned by an International UN peacekeeping force. Not because I wanted or wish for a free for all and a free pass for Hamas but because it's one of their conditions on ending the firing. It was just a suggestion to bring this to some sort of a peaceful end. Hamas stop the missiles and Israel agrees to relax their control of the border and let a neutral entity control them such as a peacekeeping force."From your last comment, it seems like we do agree that no country would want another entity in charge of its border. I'm sure from the quote above, you can see why I asked you further for your opinion. You're right this is what I said originally BUT This is the question you asked me to answer. It isn't quite the same question is it? I hadn't mentioned anything about Hamas controlling the border instead of Israel! so I really didn't know what you were talking about. So my reaction was " Why would she think that from my post, the UN can't control the border instead of Israel" I apologies for the knee jerk reaction, maybe I should have been more restraint in my reply but you have to agree I did have a valid reason for questioning what you originally asked.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 16:31:13 GMT
Becky - I'll be back. It needs far more time to put my thoughts and opinion into words ( especially on a message board where there's no "human" interaction) than I have at the moment. I will answer it and I'll answer you as honestly as I can.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 17:03:06 GMT
You might have had a valid reason for questioning what I originally asked, but yeah, questioning my reading comprehension skills and accusing me of asking random questions was a little over the top. However, I do thank you for your apology and happily accept it. Hope you have a pleasant day.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 5, 2014 17:27:52 GMT
I agree this thread has a lot of useful information on it. Things went downhill quickly with the "fuck you" and "idiot" remarks from I-95. Nothing derails a conversation like name-calling. And yet apparently you have no problem with the words genocide, indiscriminate killing, massacre, and apartheid that have been tossed around on these threads, at I-95 in particular. You're being ridiculous. If that's not considered name-calling. oh for pete's sake lucy, would you just stop it?! If I have to agree with you on one more thread my whole reputation could be ruined!!! I might have to support the closing of this thread! (JUST KIDDING on that)
man, if '95' said that word it must have really, really been extreme! If she hadn't posted that she'd done that once before I never would have believed it! I hate that word being used but with some of the things being posted here about Israel I might come close to it myself. I said 'crap' instead. It isn't like it's about some everyday silliness we normally post about. It's war - and she's IN it. Even on hgtv when they've had people looking for a home/apt in Israel a main 'have to have' is a 'safe room' and most (maybe all by now?) have them. They've showed them on tv. How many of us have that as a priority when looking for a place to live?
95's been around forever. longer than I have. that she is in Israel is not a surprise, it's nothing new, isn't like she hasn't posted that in many, many past threads. in past yrs.
is jamieson a rather new pea?
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