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Post by mymindseyedpea on May 1, 2016 23:55:04 GMT
OP, I swing between being open minded to your thought processes and trying to understand .... and wondering if I'm being punked. You want us to understand and recognise that you don't simply mean what you say, that somehow we're supposed to understand what deeper meaning you feel when saying those words rather than their actual meaning, as defined in a dictionary and commonly understood? If someone speaks to me, using words I know and understand to have specific meaning, how do I put that aside and feel what your intention was instead? Maybe when I'm choosing the words to express my insights I don't look at them separately. And maybe when it comes to understanding what words mean in a logical sense they have to be seen as separately? When I express my insights, I'm focused solely on the bigger idea and deeper meaning I'm expressing. Using words with a meaning to them that goes beyond their logical meaning to me. Referring to my associating words to the 4 elements, if I am associating the word feeling to water and associating the word logic to earth, then if I use logic to express how I feel, what's going to happen? It will dissolve. Because I'm using earth in water. I guess maybe the only way I would be able to get someone to understand me is meeting them at their level of understanding ( and I am not talking about intellectual or anything when I am talking about levels, as if I am on a higher level than them, no ) and somehow go from that logical surface to the deeper consideration. But I thought this duality and polarity topic was on the logical sense of understanding. I wouldn't have brought it up if I knew it wasn't.
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Post by BlueDiamond on May 2, 2016 0:00:10 GMT
In referring to your question in your first post, I found this quote from the first website in your link:
Where duality divides things into black or white, polarity includes the full spectrum, it's all inclusive. Duality takes the spectrum and draws a line somewhere, cutting it in half.
Being alive vs. being dead is a duality. Birth, life, and death would be a polarity, since it included the full spectrum that is life.
I don't know if 'opinion' can fall under either category, since it is so subjective.
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Post by BlueDiamond on May 2, 2016 0:03:24 GMT
I think you're thinking of things a bit too literally, i.e.. earth dissolving in water. You can most definitely use logic to express how you feel. It may not explain it exactly, but it would get you darn close.
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Post by Delta Dawn on May 2, 2016 0:05:05 GMT
I think we should all go do a few bong hits and then come back to this thread. It will make more sense and everyone will be in a better mood. That would be useful in helping to enlighten my understanding. Your place at maybe 7ish this evening? One word *edibles*. They are good.
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Post by mymindseyedpea on May 2, 2016 0:09:25 GMT
There is a difference between interpretation and deciphering. Our greatest philosophers in history certainly had a way with words. They used commonly understood language in a way that most people could understand. That said, their words and ideas continue to challenge our minds through the infinite amount of ways we can interpret them. Interpret them---not decipher. It doesn't matter how deep of a thinker you are, if you can't communicate with your fellow beings, you will not be heard. If a thought or feeling occurs in your head, it can't exist outside that realm without clear verbal or written communication. I guess I will try to indulge. If we talking big universe crap: 1. The unknowable absolute truth 2. Our continuum of perceptions and personal interpretations 3. The antithesis of the absolute truth. Again, unknowable. If we are talking day to day minutia, I guess I'd answer this differently. Yes, Interpretation has room to feel because it's an "In" word. Interpreting was what I use when I read astrology charts or share my insights. Deciphering does sound more like a rational and calculating experience. Maybe it takes a special skill to express bigger picture and deeper meaning interpretations with logic.
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Post by mymindseyedpea on May 2, 2016 0:16:13 GMT
In referring to your question in your first post, I found this quote from the first website in your link: Where duality divides things into black or white, polarity includes the full spectrum, it's all inclusive. Duality takes the spectrum and draws a line somewhere, cutting it in half. Being alive vs. being dead is a duality. Birth, life, and death would be a polarity, since it included the full spectrum that is life. I don't know if 'opinion' can fall under either category, since it is so subjective. It just resonated with me that opinion is the duality to fact and the polarity to intuition. Subjective I see as having room to explore and objective I see as having limit to explore. Before I expressed what resonated with me, I was curious to what others thought.
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Post by mymindseyedpea on May 2, 2016 0:29:32 GMT
I think you're thinking of things a bit too literally, i.e.. earth dissolving in water. You can most definitely use logic to express how you feel. It may not explain it exactly, but it would get you darn close. I feel that it could give someone an idea of how one feels when explained in logical terms. But I also feel that in order to fully understand how someone feels is to go deeper. Why they feel this way and exploring that may both support feeling and logic. Although I sometimes feel that others don't express how they feel because to them it wouldn't make any logical sense to. Dissolving earth in water: Poetry and artistic expression goes beyond logic to me. I believe a poet and an artist feel deeper meaning than logic when they express using these avenues of words and images because that's what I feel when I read poems and look at paintings. I feel someone can be felt without words. ( emotional connection )
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2016 5:37:16 GMT
What I've learned from this thread: Stay far away from New Age conversations.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2016 5:48:36 GMT
I think you're thinking of things a bit too literally, i.e.. earth dissolving in water. You can most definitely use logic to express how you feel. It may not explain it exactly, but it would get you darn close. I feel that it could give someone an idea of how one feels when explained in logical terms. But I also feel that in order to fully understand how someone feels is to go deeper. Why they feel this way and exploring that may both support feeling and logic. Although I sometimes feel that others don't express how they feel because to them it wouldn't make any logical sense to. Dissolving earth in water: Poetry and artistic expression goes beyond logic to me. I believe a poet and an artist feel deeper meaning than logic when they express using these avenues of words and images because that's what I feel when I read poems and look at paintings.
I feel someone can be felt without words. ( emotional connection ) My SIL is an amazing artist and poet, yet extremely logical at the same time. The two can co-exist and be the better for it.. L
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Post by gar on May 2, 2016 6:34:41 GMT
OP, I swing between being open minded to your thought processes and trying to understand .... and wondering if I'm being punked. You want us to understand and recognise that you don't simply mean what you say, that somehow we're supposed to understand what deeper meaning you feel when saying those words rather than their actual meaning, as defined in a dictionary and commonly understood? If someone speaks to me, using words I know and understand to have specific meaning, how do I put that aside and feel what your intention was instead? Maybe when I'm choosing the words to express my insights I don't look at them separately. And maybe when it comes to understanding what words mean in a logical sense they have to be seen as separately?
When I express my insights, I'm focused solely on the bigger idea and deeper meaning I'm expressing. Using words with a meaning to them that goes beyond their logical meaning to me.
Referring to my associating words to the 4 elements, if I am associating the word feeling to water and associating the word logic to earth, then if I use logic to express how I feel, what's going to happen? It will dissolve. Because I'm using earth in water. I guess maybe the only way I would be able to get someone to understand me is meeting them at their level of understanding ( and I am not talking about intellectual or anything when I am talking about levels, as if I am on a higher level than them, no ) and somehow go from that logical surface to the deeper consideration. But I thought this duality and polarity topic was on the logical sense of understanding. I wouldn't have brought it up if I knew it wasn't. Look, what the vast majority of the human race does is to take words that have a known meaning, string them together in a sentence and, despite the possible multitude of varying meanings of any of the single words, form a coherent structure that can be understood by whomever they're speaking to. It's pretty simple really. We all know that different words can have deeper meanings and we can all groups words together in different ways to explain different things but if you can't put them together and be understood, in a simple form when it's needed, then what's the point of communicating at all? Don't answer that....it's a rhetorical question. Sometimes you just need to use language in a simple form to get your meaning across and sometimes it's the right time for deep and meaningful delving into other possibilities. You seem not to understand the first scenario. You won't get the second meaning without mastering the first - at least here on this message board. It's not that we don't understand, it's that we can't follow your thought process because it jumps all over the place and you don't follow the normal rules of the art of conversation because you're so sidetracked into too much "depth". Ugh....I'm probably wasting my breath......carry on.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2016 8:01:07 GMT
I think you're thinking of things a bit too literally, i.e.. earth dissolving in water. You can most definitely use logic to express how you feel. It may not explain it exactly, but it would get you darn close. Dissolving earth in water: Poetry and artistic expression goes beyond logic to me. I believe a poet and an artist feel deeper meaning than logic when they express using these avenues of words and images because that's what I feel when I read poems and look at paintings. I feel someone can be felt without words. ( emotional connection ) Logic and creativity are not mutually exclusive brain processes. A great writer can convey anything along the emotional spectrum by using words that string together in a logical form. Artists, even abstract artists follow logical concepts of design. I believe it all boils down to wanting to be understood...
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Post by miominmio on May 2, 2016 8:10:14 GMT
Maybe when I'm choosing the words to express my insights I don't look at them separately. And maybe when it comes to understanding what words mean in a logical sense they have to be seen as separately?
When I express my insights, I'm focused solely on the bigger idea and deeper meaning I'm expressing. Using words with a meaning to them that goes beyond their logical meaning to me.
Referring to my associating words to the 4 elements, if I am associating the word feeling to water and associating the word logic to earth, then if I use logic to express how I feel, what's going to happen? It will dissolve. Because I'm using earth in water. I guess maybe the only way I would be able to get someone to understand me is meeting them at their level of understanding ( and I am not talking about intellectual or anything when I am talking about levels, as if I am on a higher level than them, no ) and somehow go from that logical surface to the deeper consideration. But I thought this duality and polarity topic was on the logical sense of understanding. I wouldn't have brought it up if I knew it wasn't. Look, what the vast majority of the human race does is to take words that have a known meaning, string them together in a sentence and, despite the possible multitude of varying meanings of any of the single words, form a coherent structure that can be understood by whomever they're speaking to. It's pretty simple really. We all know that different words can have deeper meanings and we can all groups words together in different ways to explain different things but if you can't put them together and be understood, in a simple form when it's needed, then what's the point of communicating at all? Don't answer that....it's a rhetorical question. Sometimes you just need to use language in a simple form to get your meaning across and sometimes it's the right time for deep and meaningful delving into other possibilities. You seem not to understand the first scenario. You won't get the second meaning without mastering the first - at least here on this message board. It's not that we don't understand, it's that we can't follow your thought process because it jumps all over the place and you don't follow the normal rules of the art of conversation because you're so sidetracked into too much "depth". Ugh....I'm probably wasting my breath......carry on. You probably are. The OP reminds me of some people I met at Uni....so desperately trying to be "deep" that they completely lost the ability to communicate with the rest of us.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on May 2, 2016 10:23:30 GMT
So you want to know what the antonyms and synonyms of the word "opposite" are? Is that what you're asking? No, but it would be interesting to see what words are the same as the word opposite. Diametrically Opposed is a good synonym for opposite. Duality of opinion means you can see/argue both sides. Polarity, means you can only see/argue one point of view and see no common ground with the other person.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on May 2, 2016 10:32:46 GMT
OP, I swing between being open minded to your thought processes and trying to understand .... and wondering if I'm being punked. You want us to understand and recognise that you don't simply mean what you say, that somehow we're supposed to understand what deeper meaning you feel when saying those words rather than their actual meaning, as defined in a dictionary and commonly understood? If someone speaks to me, using words I know and understand to have specific meaning, how do I put that aside and feel what your intention was instead? Maybe when I'm choosing the words to express my insights I don't look at them separately. And maybe when it comes to understanding what words mean in a logical sense they have to be seen as separately? When I express my insights, I'm focused solely on the bigger idea and deeper meaning I'm expressing. Using words with a meaning to them that goes beyond their logical meaning to me.Referring to my associating words to the 4 elements, if I am associating the word feeling to water and associating the word logic to earth, then if I use logic to express how I feel, what's going to happen? It will dissolve. Because I'm using earth in water. I guess maybe the only way I would be able to get someone to understand me is meeting them at their level of understanding ( and I am not talking about intellectual or anything when I am talking about levels, as if I am on a higher level than them, no ) and somehow go from that logical surface to the deeper consideration. But I thought this duality and polarity topic was on the logical sense of understanding. I wouldn't have brought it up if I knew it wasn't. I have NO idea why I am reading this before coffee.. but If you are using words with a meaning to them that goes beyond their logical meaning to you. You just need to STOP that! I would suggest you would benefit for more study, and self reflection.. and then act like you are explaining yourself to a child, deep mean does not come from using complicated words it comes from being able to take a complicated issue and simplify it.
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msliz
Drama Llama
The Procrastinator
Posts: 6,419
Jun 26, 2014 21:32:34 GMT
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Post by msliz on May 2, 2016 10:35:20 GMT
Some ideas can be modeled by a scale, such as black grey white.
Other ideas don't fit that model, and you can't force them. Fact and opinion are "apples and oranges." There isn't any in-between.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on May 2, 2016 15:59:24 GMT
Some ideas can be modeled by a scale, such as black grey white. Other ideas don't fit that model, and you can't force them. Fact and opinion are "apples and oranges." There isn't any in-between. Hmmm wouldn't a plum be in-between an apple and an orange... NOT quite a citrus fruit... but you can't quite get that satisfying crunch when you bite into it.
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Post by mymindseyedpea on May 2, 2016 17:55:27 GMT
Dissolving earth in water: Poetry and artistic expression goes beyond logic to me. I believe a poet and an artist feel deeper meaning than logic when they express using these avenues of words and images because that's what I feel when I read poems and look at paintings. I feel someone can be felt without words. ( emotional connection ) Logic and creativity are not mutually exclusive brain processes. A great writer can convey anything along the emotional spectrum by using words that string together in a logical form. Artists, even abstract artists follow logical concepts of design. I believe it all boils down to wanting to be understood... I feel that logic supports the physical aspect and feeling supports the emotional aspect. So if you were to put the 2 together ( using the elemental association again ) Earth will dissolve into water so the logic will not be structured anymore. It will allow depth to it. And feeling will not be clear anymore because the earth has clouded up the water. A logical person I'm sure can still express their emotions in art. It would just be an expression of both the physical and emotional aspect if they were using logic and feeling to paint or write. I just feel that in order to have your complete feelings of truth come out you have to feel them. I feel that feeling something completely, takes going around logic, like water in a creek doesn't let rocks get in the way, it just flows around them. Being logical about how one feels would get in the way and be like a filter. I don't see logic as bad though. I believe it has purpose. But in the physical aspect. Making choices in rational experiences. Eg: "Should I take the car to get the oil changed tomorrow because I will be in the area for an appointment anyway?" "Or should I wait next week when I can get the discount for it?" I see that as a rational experience. Not: "Should I feel like it wasn't a big deal that this person blew me off?" "Or should I go and confront him about it?" I see that as an emotional one. Logic might say: "No, it wasn't a big deal because it's common for this to happen" Or: "Heck yes confront him because it's not right to do that to someone," Feeling might say: "Express how you feel about it." "It's ok for you to feel this way" But that's just what I resonate with. I know someone with this personality in the link below. She says that she has no problem expressing all her emotions but because she is missing the F and P, I'm sure she is using logic to determine this. The correct way to feel about something is the logical way to feel. But it may not be in agreement to how they feel if they go deeper into their emotions. www.16personalities.com/intj-personality-and-emotions
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Post by mymindseyedpea on May 2, 2016 18:00:43 GMT
Some ideas can be modeled by a scale, such as black grey white. Other ideas don't fit that model, and you can't force them. Fact and opinion are "apples and oranges." There isn't any in-between. I wouldn't put anything in between fact and opionion. I would put fact betwen opinion and intuition. Thought for the mental Logic for the physical Feeling for the emotional
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2016 18:08:04 GMT
What I really want to know is, how do you feel about armpit hair? Does it resonate with you?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2016 18:23:44 GMT
Logic and creativity are not mutually exclusive brain processes. A great writer can convey anything along the emotional spectrum by using words that string together in a logical form. Artists, even abstract artists follow logical concepts of design. I believe it all boils down to wanting to be understood... I feel that logic supports the physical aspect and feeling supports the emotional aspect. So if you were to put the 2 together ( using the elemental association again ) Earth will dissolve into water so the logic will not be structured anymore. It will allow depth to it. And feeling will not be clear anymore because the earth has clouded up the water. A logical person I'm sure can still express their emotions in art. It would just be an expression of both the physical and emotional aspect if they were using logic and feeling to paint or write. I just feel that in order to have your complete feelings of truth come out you have to feel them. I feel that feeling something completely, takes going around logic, like water in a creek doesn't let rocks get in the way, it just flows around them. Being logical about how one feels would get in the way and be like a filter. I don't see logic as bad though. I believe it has purpose. But in the physical aspect. Making choices in rational experiences. Eg: "Should I take the car to get the oil changed tomorrow because I will be in the area for an appointment anyway?" "Or should I wait next week when I can get the discount for it?" I see that as a rational experience. Not: "Should I feel like it wasn't a big deal that this person blew me off?" "Or should I go and confront him about it?" I see that as an emotional one. Logic might say: "No, it wasn't a big deal because it's common for this to happen" Or: "Heck yes confront him because it's not right to do that to someone," Feeling might say: "Express how you feel about it." "It's ok for you to feel this way" But that's just what I resonate with. I know someone with this personality in the link below. She says that she has no problem expressing all her emotions but because she is missing the F and P, I'm sure she is using logic to determine this. The correct way to feel about something is the logical way to feel. But it may not be in agreement to how they feel if they go deeper into their emotions. www.16personalities.com/intj-personality-and-emotionsThat's all really interesting but my point was quite simple, to be understood you have to be coherent. You have to use words in a form that people recognise otherwise the words you are saying and the emotions they should convey are lost. That's frustrating for everyone involved in the conversation.
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Post by mymindseyedpea on May 2, 2016 18:28:40 GMT
What I really want to know is, how do you feel about armpit hair? Does it resonate with you? It doesn't. But there is a cool Native American belief about not cutting hair that I do resonate with.
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Post by mymindseyedpea on May 2, 2016 18:33:21 GMT
I feel that logic supports the physical aspect and feeling supports the emotional aspect. So if you were to put the 2 together ( using the elemental association again ) Earth will dissolve into water so the logic will not be structured anymore. It will allow depth to it. And feeling will not be clear anymore because the earth has clouded up the water. A logical person I'm sure can still express their emotions in art. It would just be an expression of both the physical and emotional aspect if they were using logic and feeling to paint or write. I just feel that in order to have your complete feelings of truth come out you have to feel them. I feel that feeling something completely, takes going around logic, like water in a creek doesn't let rocks get in the way, it just flows around them. Being logical about how one feels would get in the way and be like a filter. I don't see logic as bad though. I believe it has purpose. But in the physical aspect. Making choices in rational experiences. Eg: "Should I take the car to get the oil changed tomorrow because I will be in the area for an appointment anyway?" "Or should I wait next week when I can get the discount for it?" I see that as a rational experience. Not: "Should I feel like it wasn't a big deal that this person blew me off?" "Or should I go and confront him about it?" I see that as an emotional one. Logic might say: "No, it wasn't a big deal because it's common for this to happen" Or: "Heck yes confront him because it's not right to do that to someone," Feeling might say: "Express how you feel about it." "It's ok for you to feel this way" But that's just what I resonate with. I know someone with this personality in the link below. She says that she has no problem expressing all her emotions but because she is missing the F and P, I'm sure she is using logic to determine this. The correct way to feel about something is the logical way to feel. But it may not be in agreement to how they feel if they go deeper into their emotions. www.16personalities.com/intj-personality-and-emotionsThat's all really interesting but my point was quite simple, to be understood you have to be coherent. You have to use words in a form that people recognise otherwise the words you are saying and the emotions they should convey are lost. That's frustrating for everyone involved in the conversation. In some of the things I do discuss I'm not feeling deep in and hopefully I'm more coherent with those discussions. Even though I didn't relay everything in one of them well.
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Post by elaine on May 2, 2016 18:44:46 GMT
I'm avoiding using the word "opposite" because both of the words that I have answered with this are both the opposite of the word "opinion", but in different ways. That's why I am using the words duality and polarity. I'll give it a little more time to see if any thoughts are expressed and then I will explain. If my explanation ends up bringing clarity to this post I will edit the OP. Was there ever an explanation about the situation that this refers to that will bring clarity? Did I miss it?
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Post by mymindseyedpea on May 2, 2016 19:07:56 GMT
I'm avoiding using the word "opposite" because both of the words that I have answered with this are both the opposite of the word "opinion", but in different ways. That's why I am using the words duality and polarity. I'll give it a little more time to see if any thoughts are expressed and then I will explain. If my explanation ends up bringing clarity to this post I will edit the OP. Was there ever an explanation about the situation that this refers to that will bring clarity? Did I miss it? I never explained what inspired me to create this thread in the first place. Is that what you mean?
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Post by chlerbie on May 2, 2016 19:14:07 GMT
This thread doesn't resonate with me.
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Post by peasapie on May 2, 2016 19:17:55 GMT
1. Feeling 2. Opinion 3. Fact
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Post by elaine on May 2, 2016 19:18:38 GMT
Was there ever an explanation about the situation that this refers to that will bring clarity? Did I miss it? I never explained what inspired me to create this thread in the first place. Is that what you mean? You said early in the thread: . Then you said you would explain. So, from what you have posted, it seems like this whole morass started with an argument between you and another person. It would help me immensely to know how the argument actually went and what it was about in order to understand what you are attempting to use words to explain/justify.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on May 2, 2016 19:22:19 GMT
I'd argue that your premise is flawed from the start: Given the structure you've provided, I'd put opinion in the middle as number two, and belief and fact as the two ends: 1. Belief: an idea felt to be true but not based in any tangible evidence. 2. Opinion: an idea felt to be true, but based on personal interpretation of the situation and available evidence. 3. Fact: undisputed truth that can be objectively verified. Yes; this!!! I totally agree with Ashley-- ashley, thank you for putting what I felt about this (but couldn't articulate) into words.
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Post by mymindseyedpea on May 2, 2016 20:21:48 GMT
I never explained what inspired me to create this thread in the first place. Is that what you mean? You said early in the thread: . Then you said you would explain. So, from what you have posted, it seems like this whole morass started with an argument between you and another person. It would help me immensely to know how the argument actually went and what it was about in order to understand what you are attempting to use words to explain/justify. Well it wasn't an argument I had. I really don't know how one thing lead to the another, but my boyfriend was talking about one of those monopoly stickers he had from the McDonalds game when we were driving to the store. Then when we got to the checkout the cashier asked my boyfriend if he played Monopoly. He said yes and the cashier gave him a generous handful of Monopoly stickers. And I got into this whole deep exploration with him about how he was just mentioning his sticker and then he got a bunch more. I told him I felt it happened because he actually may be showing some gratitude for once. ( which gets into a whole bunch of new agey law of attraction, vibe matching and gratitude being the best way to embrace presence kind of stuff ) Somehow my expressing this to him ( if I recall this correctly ) had him says that's just my opinion. And since I was already in depth of meaning I started reflecting on the word opinion and doing my whole elemental association with it. And the conclusion I came to about it is that opinion is of the air element. It's what someone thinks. And since I associate the earth element as a duality to air ( when it's just referring to the experience of those 2 ) I associated a word that supports the earth element that would be the duality to the word opinion, which was the word fact. And boyfriend agreed that the opposite of an opinion is a fact. And I told him but that's not the only aspect. Fact is like the surfaced opposite. There's a deeper opposite to an opinion and that's intuition. So the first opposite is the opinion against the fact. It's a contrast. ( and I guess in new age terms that's considered a duality, although I still don't get how it's new agey ) The second opposite is the intuition, which is a compliment of an opinion. ( which is a polarity, according to hopefully more than new age ) When I share an insight that I feel, it's not necessarily a fact. It's my opinion. What I feel compliments with how I share it. A fact can debunk an opinion or intuition with being "correct". So it's a contrast to both sides. A fact is the balance between the opinion and intuition so one doesn't get permanently lost in their thoughts or feelings. That's what inspired me to create this thread, for others to share their thoughts on this idea.
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Post by rst on May 2, 2016 20:31:12 GMT
Well, your boyfriend is a real special guy if he doesn't react with something far worse than lack of gratitude to your vibing and intuiting and such.
Better hold on to him.
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