Deleted
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Oct 5, 2024 3:21:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2016 1:20:42 GMT
link
In an earlier post I mentioned the NRA had a SuperPac . Here is the complete article outlining the influence the NRA has on elections. Take a gander at how much money is donated directly or indirectly to their candidate of choice. Too much power just too much influence for any one organization to have on our elected officials.
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Post by elaine on Jun 21, 2016 1:23:49 GMT
I don't see anyone proposing anything to help the mentally ill get better care, to expand those programs. Why not do that? Don't act like nothing can be done because you didn't restrict gun rights. Yeah, go look up Ronald Reagan and his administration and what the GOP did to mental health care in this country. That is another huge gaping wound/hole in American society due to the Republicans. And it is currently the GOP that moan and whine and begrudge every. single. penny. spent on social programs and health care, including mental health care. I'd throw a HUGE party and dance a jig - topless even - if Congress AND Senate passed bills to increase spending on mental health care and expand the programs in place, in addition to restore what Reagan and his cronies gutted.
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Jun 21, 2016 1:26:09 GMT
I don't see anyone proposing anything to help the mentally ill get better care, to expand those programs. Why not do that? Don't act like nothing can be done because you didn't restrict gun rights. Yeah, go look up Ronald Reagan and his administration and what the GOP did to mental health care in this country. That is another huge gaping wound/hole in American society due to the Republicans. And it is currently the GOP that moan and whine and begrudge every. single. penny. spent on social programs and health care, including mental health care. I'd throw a HUGE party and dance a jig - topless even - if Congress AND Senate passed bills to increase spending on mental health care and expand the programs in place, in addition to restore what Reagan and his cronies gutted. Or you can just give up. It's up to you.
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Post by elaine on Jun 21, 2016 1:35:06 GMT
Yeah, go look up Ronald Reagan and his administration and what the GOP did to mental health care in this country. That is another huge gaping wound/hole in American society due to the Republicans. And it is currently the GOP that moan and whine and begrudge every. single. penny. spent on social programs and health care, including mental health care. I'd throw a HUGE party and dance a jig - topless even - if Congress AND Senate passed bills to increase spending on mental health care and expand the programs in place, in addition to restore what Reagan and his cronies gutted. Or you can just give up. It's up to you.Why give up? Why don't you? No one here is against mental health. Except the numerous whiners about Obamacare, which actually did. Just. That. I'm waiting for you to post a thread in praise of Obamacare and the mental health benefits it has afforded many who had none before. I vote for candidates whose platforms include increased spending on social programs, including mental health, do you? I volunteer providing mental health care. Do you? Or do you just whine here and do nothing?
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Jun 21, 2016 1:57:56 GMT
Or you can just give up. It's up to you. Why give up? Why don't you? No one here is against mental health. Except the numerous whiners about Obamacare, which actually did. Just. That. I'm waiting for you to post a thread in praise of Obamacare and the mental health benefits it has afforded many who had none before. I vote for candidates whose platforms include increased spending on social programs, including mental health, do you? I volunteer providing mental health care. Do you? Or do you just whine here and do nothing? I'm giving ideas to those who are all depressed that zero gun restrictions were placed today. If you demand that something be done, you can absolutely do it in the mental health system. Lobby to expand those programs and get to the mentally ill who are dangerous. This population is seriously under served in this country. This avenue could be very beneficial.
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Post by elaine on Jun 21, 2016 2:15:31 GMT
Why give up? Why don't you? No one here is against mental health. Except the numerous whiners about Obamacare, which actually did. Just. That. I'm waiting for you to post a thread in praise of Obamacare and the mental health benefits it has afforded many who had none before. I vote for candidates whose platforms include increased spending on social programs, including mental health, do you? I volunteer providing mental health care. Do you? Or do you just whine here and do nothing? I'm giving ideas to those who are all depressed that zero gun restrictions were placed today. If you demand that something be done, you can absolutely do it in the mental health system. Lobby to expand those programs and get to the mentally ill who are dangerous. This population is seriously under served in this country. This avenue could be very beneficial.Why? The mentally ill will still be able to buy as many guns and semi automatic weapons and high capacity cartridges as they want. People aren't cured in one visit. It can take years. I have campaigned ad nauseum for increased healthcare for the underserved, which includes mental health care. I have put my money and professional time behind it, have you? I haven't seen one peep from you about how great Obamacare is. Nor about what you have done to support mental health care in the US. In reality, this is just a red herring and a distraction from the real issue that as long as the evil, spawn of the devil, NRA and their supporters - including you and Nicole in TX - continue to be allowed to lobby Congress with unlimited funds and access, there will not be any logical, reasonable, sensible, and socially responsible gun control legislation passed. Mental health programming won't help that side, the crucial one, of the equation.
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Jun 21, 2016 2:24:59 GMT
I'm giving ideas to those who are all depressed that zero gun restrictions were placed today. If you demand that something be done, you can absolutely do it in the mental health system. Lobby to expand those programs and get to the mentally ill who are dangerous. This population is seriously under served in this country. This avenue could be very beneficial. Why? The mentally ill will still be able to buy as many guns and semi automatic weapons and high capacity cartridges as they want. People aren't cured in one visit. It can take years. I have campaigned ad nauseum for increased healthcare for the underserved, which includes mental health care. I have put my money and professional time behind it, have you? I haven't seen one peep from you about how great Obamacare is. Nor about what you have done to support mental health care in the US. In reality, this is just a red herring and a distraction from the real issue that as long as the evil, spawn of the devil, NRA and their supporters - including you and Nicole in TX - continue to be allowed to lobby Congress with unlimited funds and access, there will not be any logical, reasonable, sensible, and socially responsible gun control legislation passed. Mental health programming won't help that side, the crucial one, of the equation. You act like unless you take all the guns away that the problem with the mentally ill won't ever be solved. I don't believe that to be true. With better mental health care many can live productive lives. For those who are dangerous and cannot be helped by the mental health system I would advocate for involuntary committal in a facility. There is plenty that can be done besides taking away gun rights or restricting freedoms from those who didn't do it.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jun 21, 2016 2:26:59 GMT
I don't see anyone proposing anything to help the mentally ill get better care, to expand those programs. Why not do that? Don't act like nothing can be done because you didn't restrict gun rights. Let's see--it hasn't worked so far-- Republican's have been talking about legislation for more mental health care, (since at least 2007-08) as a means to reduce mass shootings, passed legislation that had very limited impact, reduced co pay's in some cases, then effectively making it pretty much worthless by not being able to define parts of the bill being passed! Major Republican's Blunt, Rubio, Ayotte + a dozen others have been outspoken and voted against mental health care provisions. The Affordable Care Act also addressed increasing availability of mental health care to more who would not otherwise have access to it, again being argued as unconstitutional by Republican's. The Wisconsin governor was outspoken about addressing mental health as opposed to implementing gun control measures, then cuts state mental health funding by millions in the few years immediately following. President Obama challenged Congress to put their money where their mouths are and get to (once and for all/finally) passing legislation to help the mentally ill. He was criticized for meddling in things that should be up to the legislators. Congress members talk a good game for TV and sound bites, but when it comes to action, they denounce and vote against actual help. Republican's, NRA rush to assign the mental illness label on mass shooters, however won't actually pass legislation or vote down that might help. So....
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Jun 21, 2016 2:33:11 GMT
I don't see anyone proposing anything to help the mentally ill get better care, to expand those programs. Why not do that? Don't act like nothing can be done because you didn't restrict gun rights. Let's see--it hasn't worked so far-- Republican's have been talking about legislation for more mental health care, (since at least 2007-08) as a means to reduce mass shootings, passed legislation that had very limited impact, reduced co pay's in some cases, then effectively making it pretty much worthless by not being able to define parts of the bill being passed! Major Republican's Blunt, Rubio, Ayotte + a dozen others have been outspoken and voted against mental health care provisions. The Affordable Care Act also addressed increasing availability of mental health care to more who would not otherwise have access to it, again being argued as unconstitutional by Republican's. The Wisconsin governor was outspoken about addressing mental health as opposed to implementing gun control measures, then cuts state mental health funding by millions in the few years immediately following. President Obama challenged Congress to put their money where their mouths are and get to (once and for all/finally) passing legislation to help the mentally ill. He was criticized for meddling in things that should be up to the legislators. Congress members talk a good game for TV and sound bites, but when it comes to action, they denounce and vote against actual help. Republican's, NRA rush to assign the mental illness label on mass shooters, however won't actually pass legislation or vote down that might help. So.... How about doing something instead of blaming?
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jun 21, 2016 2:38:16 GMT
What about all this loss of "due process" that was being talked about in regards to the possibility of losing freedom to own any kind of gun? The mentally ill are entitled to the exact same due process that "sane" people are, so you are negating due process for them now? elaine is right--this is just a distraction, there is ALWAYS a distraction when it comes to any reasonable discussion where it comes to gun control (and no one was suggesting to take away all guns like that rainbow bunny stated above) Funny thing--(actually ironic) is that in previous discussions it was always adamantly insisted that criminals will always be able to get guns/weapons--which assuming that most would think a mass shooter is a criminal, and Republican's are labeling mass shooters as mentally ill, wouldn't the same be true for them then? That the mentally ill would be able to get their hands on guns/weapons if they really wanted to, after all, they are criminals, right? Yes, just another "circular speak" distraction !
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Post by chlerbie on Jun 21, 2016 2:44:14 GMT
So Rainbow... I copied and pasted this from a magazine piece: Also, the "mental health" gambit, in this context, is always vague. What exactly is the plan? Round up everyone with a mental health issue and put them under lock and key? That amounts to 1 in 5 Americans, the vast majority of whom have no violent tendencies. Will we have some kind of extensive mental health registry? A lot of Americans who struggle with mental health are undiagnosed, though, and putting them on a government list that restricts their rights is not a great inducement to get a diagnosis. There are a lot of shooters in this country, so we have some pretty good data on mass shooters. And that data shows there's no reliable way to tell who is going to go off like this, and only 23 percent of shooters have a diagnosis. Even if all of those individuals got gold-star treatment, the system would only stop a few shooters. Read more: www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/4-pro-gun-arguments-were-sick-of-hearing-20151001#ixzz4CB6Tn5dU Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook
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Post by elaine on Jun 21, 2016 2:45:35 GMT
Let's see--it hasn't worked so far-- Republican's have been talking about legislation for more mental health care, (since at least 2007-08) as a means to reduce mass shootings, passed legislation that had very limited impact, reduced co pay's in some cases, then effectively making it pretty much worthless by not being able to define parts of the bill being passed! Major Republican's Blunt, Rubio, Ayotte + a dozen others have been outspoken and voted against mental health care provisions. The Affordable Care Act also addressed increasing availability of mental health care to more who would not otherwise have access to it, again being argued as unconstitutional by Republican's. The Wisconsin governor was outspoken about addressing mental health as opposed to implementing gun control measures, then cuts state mental health funding by millions in the few years immediately following. President Obama challenged Congress to put their money where their mouths are and get to (once and for all/finally) passing legislation to help the mentally ill. He was criticized for meddling in things that should be up to the legislators. Congress members talk a good game for TV and sound bites, but when it comes to action, they denounce and vote against actual help. Republican's, NRA rush to assign the mental illness label on mass shooters, however won't actually pass legislation or vote down that might help. So.... How about doing something instead of blaming?I have been doing something, and you? I have asked you multiple times what YOU have done to help the mentally ill, be it with your time or supporting legislation, but you conveniently "forget" to answer. Why don't you do something? And, speaking as a psychologist, all the mental health programming in the world won't solve a thing as long as the mentally ill are allowed to buy guns unfettered. You don't simply cure PTSD, or schizophrenia, or bipolar mood disorder, or a wide variety of other mental illnesses that make owning guns a public safety issue. No matter how fine our mental health system is, as long as the mentally ill can buy guns, all of us and our children are in danger. Red herring. Red herring. Red herring. I continue to wait for you to start a thread praising Obamacare because of the access to mental healthcare it does offers. And for you to tell us all what else you have done to support mental health care. But you much prefer to prattle on and never actually do anything other than put your own daughter in danger. I hope to G-d she doesn't ever have to reap what you sow.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jun 21, 2016 2:47:58 GMT
Let's see--it hasn't worked so far-- Republican's have been talking about legislation for more mental health care, (since at least 2007-08) as a means to reduce mass shootings, passed legislation that had very limited impact, reduced co pay's in some cases, then effectively making it pretty much worthless by not being able to define parts of the bill being passed! Major Republican's Blunt, Rubio, Ayotte + a dozen others have been outspoken and voted against mental health care provisions. The Affordable Care Act also addressed increasing availability of mental health care to more who would not otherwise have access to it, again being argued as unconstitutional by Republican's. The Wisconsin governor was outspoken about addressing mental health as opposed to implementing gun control measures, then cuts state mental health funding by millions in the few years immediately following. President Obama challenged Congress to put their money where their mouths are and get to (once and for all/finally) passing legislation to help the mentally ill. He was criticized for meddling in things that should be up to the legislators. Congress members talk a good game for TV and sound bites, but when it comes to action, they denounce and vote against actual help. Republican's, NRA rush to assign the mental illness label on mass shooters, however won't actually pass legislation or vote down that might help. So.... How about doing something instead of blaming?ummmmm....YOU stated that you didn't see anyone doing anything in the mental illness area---I gave you multiple instances that people tried to "do something" and were shot down by the same people who are using it as their "red herring" or reason du jour, But I'm happy to see that you recognize where the blame lies.
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Post by lumo on Jun 21, 2016 2:51:00 GMT
Why? The mentally ill will still be able to buy as many guns and semi automatic weapons and high capacity cartridges as they want. People aren't cured in one visit. It can take years. I have campaigned ad nauseum for increased healthcare for the underserved, which includes mental health care. I have put my money and professional time behind it, have you? I haven't seen one peep from you about how great Obamacare is. Nor about what you have done to support mental health care in the US. In reality, this is just a red herring and a distraction from the real issue that as long as the evil, spawn of the devil, NRA and their supporters - including you and Nicole in TX - continue to be allowed to lobby Congress with unlimited funds and access, there will not be any logical, reasonable, sensible, and socially responsible gun control legislation passed. Mental health programming won't help that side, the crucial one, of the equation. You act like unless you take all the guns away that the problem with the mentally ill won't ever be solved. I don't believe that to be true. With better mental health care many can live productive lives. For those who are dangerous and cannot be helped by the mental health system I would advocate for involuntary committal in a facility. There is plenty that can be done besides taking away gun rights or restricting freedoms from those who didn't do it.So explain to me how the measures that were voted down today would have done anything to take away your gun rights or would have restricted your freedoms.
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Post by elaine on Jun 21, 2016 3:02:50 GMT
You act like unless you take all the guns away that the problem with the mentally ill won't ever be solved. I don't believe that to be true. With better mental health care many can live productive lives. For those who are dangerous and cannot be helped by the mental health system I would advocate for involuntary committal in a facility. There is plenty that can be done besides taking away gun rights or restricting freedoms from those who didn't do it. So explain to me how the measures that were voted down today would have done anything to take away your gun rights or would have restricted your freedoms. Yes, please Rainbow, explain. You don't even have to dumb it down for us - I promise to look up the big words in my dictionary.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jun 21, 2016 3:06:46 GMT
How about doing something instead of blaming? ummmmm....YOU stated that you didn't see anyone doing anything in the mental illness area---I gave you multiple instances that people tried to "do something" and were shot down by the same people who are using it as their "red herring" or reason du jour, But I'm happy to see that you recognize where the blame lies. Oh and it's not blaming that I was doing, I was stating FACTS.
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Post by freecharlie on Jun 21, 2016 3:14:59 GMT
I don't see anyone proposing anything to help the mentally ill get better care, to expand those programs. Why not do that? Don't act like nothing can be done because you didn't restrict gun rights. That is because this is a discussion on gun control, not on the programs for those who are mentally ill.
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Post by elaine on Jun 21, 2016 3:17:39 GMT
I don't see anyone proposing anything to help the mentally ill get better care, to expand those programs. Why not do that? Don't act like nothing can be done because you didn't restrict gun rights. That is because this is a discussion on gun control, not on the programs for those who are mentally ill. I love you, freecharlie.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jun 21, 2016 3:18:00 GMT
I don't see anyone proposing anything to help the mentally ill get better care, to expand those programs. Why not do that? Don't act like nothing can be done because you didn't restrict gun rights. That is because this is a discussion on gun control, not on the programs for those who are mentally ill. And when I did point out attempts for better care, rainbow bunny didn't likey.
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Jun 21, 2016 3:37:00 GMT
I rarely see any of you really pushing for mental health reform. I see you all down in the dumps because you didn't get more control over other people's guns. If you really wanted to do something you wouldn't put all your eggs in the one basket because it won't work. You aren't getting the gun control that you want so it's maybe time to look at other avenues if you really want to get something done. Just a suggestion.
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Post by elaine on Jun 21, 2016 3:51:23 GMT
I rarely see any of you really pushing for mental health reform. I see you all down in the dumps because you didn't get more control over other people's guns. If you really wanted to do something you wouldn't put all your eggs in the one basket because it won't work. You aren't getting the gun control that you want so it's maybe time to look at other avenues if you really want to get something done. Just a suggestion. So, your daughter is perfectly fine now because she has seen a doctor? She can eat all the animal protein she wants, right? Because she has seen a doctor, she must be cured and can eat anything she wants to. Your obsession with the whole vegan thing is only because you want attention. No? She still can't eat animal protein? Wha? You mean she is just like many mentally ill people who receive treatment and aren't instantly cured and that she may suffer, to some degree, for the rest of her/their lives with a disorder? No? You and your daughter just must love the attention her supposed, but now must-be-cured-because-she-has-seen-a-Doctor, illness has brought you. Munchausen by Proxy - it is a verifiable mental illness with a diagnostic code. If you really want to go down the train of thought you have started, then you are also claiming to be mentally ill and begging for someone to take your gun away. That you don't see us push for mental health reform is pure and utter bullshit. It gets brought up time and time again. Again, please address the FACT that Obamacare actually is mental health reform and has provided mental health treatment to many who didn't have access before. Or, will we hear crickets again because it doesn't fit with your warped view of Obama, health care and mental health care? Or address the topic that you actually started, but as usual have abandoned because it isn't going your way, which is gun control. It is in your title, or are you having difficulty reading tonight? All the mental health reform in the world won't address the fact that there will always be mentally ill people who shouldn't own guns, and that we should control for that.
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Post by freecharlie on Jun 21, 2016 4:01:52 GMT
I rarely see any of you really pushing for mental health reform. I see you all down in the dumps because you didn't get more control over other people's guns. If you really wanted to do something you wouldn't put all your eggs in the one basket because it won't work. You aren't getting the gun control that you want so it's maybe time to look at other avenues if you really want to get something done. Just a suggestion. Again, that wasn't the topic of this thread. I have yet to see anybody here say that the mental health system in this country is perfect. I see people wanting better mental health. I see many (not all) wanting a way to flag someone who is deemed a threat by their psych in the background check used in gun purchases. I also see people not giving up on their version of gun control. And I don't think they should. While I will continue to believe that most people should be allowed to own guns based on my experiences and views, I understand not everybody sees it that way. I think finding some common ground and doing our best to keep people who really shouldn't have guns away from owning guns is in everybody's best interests. Keeping guns from some asshole that wants to shoot up a school or a mall or whatever as best as we can allievates some anti-gun people's minds. The people who want to ban all guns or make it damn near impossible to buy or own them are not doing themselves any favors. It isn't going to happen and with each cry to ban guns, the other side digs in deeper. The people who don't want any legislation at all are not doing their cause any favors either. The other side believes they want uncontrolled access to guns and they dig in deeper.
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Post by jess on Jun 21, 2016 5:04:58 GMT
Another Aussie chiming in (although the discussion seems to have evolved!). This is my first post on the new NSBR. I've been reading since the first, but even on the old board would read much more than I'd contribute. I think Australia absolutely did the right thing after the Port Arthur massacre. I have family that still own guns - legally. They live in the country and use them for pest control, or they are members of gun clubs. We didn't get rid of them, we just made it harder to access them. And yes, criminals still have them - but they're about 10 times the price on the black market here than they are in the US. And as has been stated before, most criminals use them on each other. I don't fear for my life, I don't fear for the life of my children. But, as also stated earlier, we never had the gun culture you do. Despite our convict ancestry! Most Aussies I know roll their eyes at the US gun debate because, generally, we just don't understand why you wouldn't have some sort of reform! So it's great to read threads like this and, using the peas as a representative sample of Americans, see that most of you DO want reform! I don't think anyone is suggesting taking everyone's guns away - just regulating which ones are acceptable and tightening up the checks and hoops to jump through to be a licensed carrier. There are so many arguments I don't understand. Like having guns in your home for safety. If you're a responsible gun owner, surely your guns are locked away? Ideally with the ammo locked in a separate place? So how are you going to use it to protect yourself? There's a great video of an Aussie comedian talking about gun laws in the US. I think it sums up how most of us feel. I'm not sure I know how to link on here, but I'll give it a go. There are actually two parts to it - you should be able to click through to the second video from the first. Jim Jeffries - Gun Control
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Post by gar on Jun 21, 2016 7:58:04 GMT
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Jun 21, 2016 13:26:40 GMT
Rights are afforded to American citizens, and I don't have a problem with that. You cannot legislate away evil by taking away the rights of the rest of us.
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jayfab
Drama Llama
procastinating
Posts: 5,591
Jun 26, 2014 21:55:15 GMT
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Post by jayfab on Jun 21, 2016 13:42:33 GMT
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Post by mollycoddle on Jun 21, 2016 13:50:32 GMT
Exactly. The right to own "a" gun is one thing, but I am for universal-and better-background checks. How to do that? I really believe that there needs to be a lot of information-gathering by elected officials from mental health experts and law enforcement, for starters.
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Post by JBeans on Jun 21, 2016 13:57:51 GMT
Rights are afforded to American citizens, and I don't have a problem with that. You cannot legislate away evil by taking away the rights of the rest of us. You are absolutely right. You know what has to change? The entire gun culture. I just don't see that changing.
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Jun 21, 2016 14:23:52 GMT
Rights are afforded to American citizens, and I don't have a problem with that. You cannot legislate away evil by taking away the rights of the rest of us. You are absolutely right. You know what has to change? The entire gun culture. I just don't see that changing. I don't really know what a "gun culture" is, so would you explain? I do know that the evil in people's hearts and minds needs to change and we do need a better mental health system.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jun 21, 2016 14:39:32 GMT
It's very "funny" (not) that now we have gone from criminals having assault types of weapons to this week it being all about the mentally ill are the mass shooters and who should be focused on. ESPECIALLY when any attempts to provide for better mental health have been voted down by Republican's.
Wonder who it's going to be next week...
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