inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Jul 27, 2016 3:15:36 GMT
if all the other highly developed countries in the world have child care, health care, etc. we can do it too. we can tax ourselves and pay for it. we have the biggest economic engine in the world. heck..cut the military bands in half. somehow do we need an army larger than all other combine? we need to rethink what we are spending money on. maybe if we had medicare for all..it would save all that money spent on profit. we can pay for it if we are willing to make sure all americans have a certain level of support. What happens if we have to defend ourselves? Our military has to be ready. We've already made huge military cuts. I'm not sure we could properly defend ourselves today if we are attacked. . We need to cut military spending and more effectively manage the budget they do have. It's popular to complain about entitlements but very few people complain about the tremendous waste in the defense sector. It's disgusting that most of our active service members and veterans receive so little in exchange for their service while military contractors rake in hundreds of millions of dollars while failing to do their jobs properly or well.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jul 27, 2016 3:19:12 GMT
I don't disagree with you one bit about our service members and veterans. And I'm all for trimming waste; in all areas of government. Because I guarantee you the military is far from the only government agency that wastes money.
Let's not forget our elected representatives. Let's trim their salaries, their benefits, the salaries and benefits of their staff, their perks, their money to campaign with etc.
And once we do all that, we still should not be spending it on free child care or college. We should be reducing our deficit so that our children and grandchildren aren't strangled by our inability to keep our finances in order.
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scorpeao
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,521
Location: NorCal USA
Jun 25, 2014 21:04:54 GMT
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Post by scorpeao on Jul 27, 2016 3:19:21 GMT
That is just wrong! That is insane! Our K-12 teachers are making way way way less and are expected to do so so so much more. And they spend so much out of their pockets for supplies and aides. College students provide that stuff for themselves, for the most part. SaveWhat's insane is the idea that every person in America is entitled to a college education, free or otherwise. The problem is that a college degree is like a high school diploma was 30 years ago. If you don't have a degree there are many jobs unavailable to you...jobs for which a degree is not needed. Sure, there are trade schools, but even those are outrageously priced. A degree has been cheapened while the cost of getting one has skyrocketed. I work at a university and my PI makes more than $400,000 a year. Maybe college would be more affordable if salary caps were placed professors at publicly funded universities and colleges.
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Post by ntsf on Jul 27, 2016 3:20:18 GMT
you cut the military in half and you could still defend our country.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jul 27, 2016 3:21:17 GMT
Colleges pay and cost what the market will bear. Instead of offering "free college", reducing the people going to these colleges will force a reduction in employee salaries, etc. The free market would do it's job if the government would stay the f*ck out of it.
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sweetpeasmom
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,592
Jun 27, 2014 14:04:01 GMT
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Post by sweetpeasmom on Jul 27, 2016 3:21:33 GMT
That is just wrong! That is insane! Our K-12 teachers are making way way way less and are expected to do so so so much more. And they spend so much out of their pockets for supplies and aides. College students provide that stuff for themselves, for the most part. SaveWhat's insane is the idea that every person in America is entitled to a college education, free or otherwise. Yes, I 100% agree with you on this. Save
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Post by freecharlie on Jul 27, 2016 3:21:47 GMT
If we are going to discuss personal responsibility then shouldn't we be looking for answers within ourselves vs. what the government can give us? I think right now, it is both. I think clapping our hands and saying, "All done" is also irresponsible. I think that is going to lead to a worse situation than we have now. Instead of free daycare or whatever, how about the ability to have a sliding scale? One that stays the same for your first raise. Instead of abolishing medicaid, what about a $2 copay for prescriptions and $5 for office visits? Instead of free tuition, what about lower interest loans with longer to repay if needed? Or more work study? What do we cut? I'm not sure. I am sure there is wasteful spending out there, but what is it and how do we cut it with the smallest impact to the economy or the welfare of the area that is getting cutting. Do we raise taxes? On whom? How much? Do we go to a tax on purchases only? Close loopholes that coporations drive their trucks through? Close the loopholes/tax breaks for all? I don't know. Again, I'd like to see compromise and common ground.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jul 27, 2016 3:22:13 GMT
you cut the military in half and you could still defend our country. Really? Do you mind telling me where you obtained your military expertise? Are you in the military now? Are you privy to the levels of defense necessary? Or are you just giving us your opinion?
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Jul 27, 2016 3:23:26 GMT
I don't disagree with you one bit about our service members and veterans. And I'm all for trimming waste; in all areas of government. Because I guarantee you the military is far from the only government agency that wastes money. Let's not forget our elected representatives. Let's trim their salaries, their benefits, the salaries and benefits of their staff, their perks, their money to campaign with etc. And once we do all that, we still should not be spending it on free child care or college. We should be reducing our deficit so that our children and grandchildren aren't strangled by our inability to keep our finances in order. Lauren...we actually agree on something. Has hell frozen over?
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Post by Anita on Jul 27, 2016 3:24:44 GMT
you cut the military in half and you could still defend our country. I completely disagree. Anita
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,130
Jun 29, 2014 18:58:47 GMT
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Post by scrapnnana on Jul 27, 2016 3:24:56 GMT
Even if they taxed that those rich 1% folks at the rate of 100% (meaning every dime confiscated from the 1%), it still wouldn't pay for what they are promising. Once the laws are passed, the costs will fall to everyone. Nothing in life is free, and if it is free, then people don't value it but just take it for granted instead. Kids whose parents pay for their college are less likely to work as hard as the kids who have to work their way through and pay their own way. We value what we work hard for.
Politicians count on people not bothering to think about things like that. All that matters is that the promises are able to buy people's votes.
Ordinary folks will be paying the price, despite what the politicians say. And if we don't stop spending ourselves into oblivion, we could end up like Venezuela, and probably will.
Edited to add: the moment that government gets involved, costs skyrocket. Big Government does not have a clue on how to eliminate waste, any more than they have eliminated poverty through the war on poverty, or eliminated drugs by the war on drugs. Government tends to make a mess of things and waste a lot of money in the process.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Jul 27, 2016 3:25:29 GMT
Colleges pay and cost what the market will bear. Instead of offering "free college", reducing the people going to these colleges will force a reduction in employee salaries, etc. The free market would do it's job if the government would stay the f*ck out of it. It's interesting to see how government intervention has caused the cost of college tuition to rise. I'm on my phone but will provide links to some great articles I've read on this topic later.
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Post by DinCA on Jul 27, 2016 3:27:31 GMT
What happens if we have to defend ourselves? Our military has to be ready. We've already made huge military cuts. I'm not sure we could properly defend ourselves today if we are attacked. . We need to cut military spending and more effectively manage the budget they do have. It's popular to complain about entitlements but very few people complain about the tremendous waste in the defense sector. It's disgusting that most of our active service members and veterans receive so little in exchange for their service while military contractors rake in hundreds of millions of dollars while failing to do their jobs properly or well. Have you listened to our veterans talk about the state of their equipment lately? There is a huge difference in stopping the lobbying for military contractors and funding the military. Do any of you really want to send our loved ones into battle with subpar equipment? We have equipped our middle eastern allies with better equipment than we are expecting our own men and women to use. We no longer have an elite military. We are not equipped for a war. And can you just imagine the outrage there would be if, God forbid, we are attacked and haven't made the resources available to retaliate? We can't have it both ways. SaveSave
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jul 27, 2016 3:29:03 GMT
OK, let's look at these one at a time.
1. Day care. No. Again, if you choose to have a baby, then plan on paying for it. If you can't then don't get pregnant. Why should the taxpayer or the employer have to foot the bill because someone wants a baby? You have a right to procreate (or abort). You don't and shouldn't have a right to have someone else pay for these things.
2. Medicaid: Although I don't like the idea, this proposal would be the easiest for me to swallow. However, the numbers would have to be higher. In my experience, people do not value what they have no financial stake in. We don't want people going to a doctor everytime they have a sniffle. Or if they want to, the rest of us shouldn't pay for it.
3. Loans for tuition: the interest rates on loans is already lower than the market loans. Students have 10 years from the date of graduation plus hardship deferments are easily obtained. Ask me how I know. Because I do a heck of a lot of bankruptcies and every one of the people with student loans has either a deferment or reduced payment. Again, before taking out ridiculous amounts of loans to attend an expensive school to study "English Literature" or "The History of Women int he Middle Ages", people should be thinking long and hard about how they will pay once they graduate. It doesn't take a Rhodes scholar to know that many of the college kids in ridiculous majors will never obtain employment in their field or make enough to pay back those loans. Once again, the predicament is caused by the lack of responsibility on the individual. Making it easier to push off paying loans, reducing tuition etc will only cost the rest of us money instead of the person who made the bad choice. IMO, as a society we want to "discourage" fiscally irresponsible decisions by students. Your proposal simply continues to encourage the wasteful dissipation of assets by an individual who will have no financial reason to make better choices.
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Post by mom on Jul 27, 2016 3:35:06 GMT
What's insane is the idea that every person in America is entitled to a college education, free or otherwise. The problem is that a college degree is like a high school diploma was 30 years ago. If you don't have a degree there are many jobs unavailable to you...jobs for which a degree is not needed. Sure, there are trade schools, but even those are outrageously priced. A degree has been cheapened while the cost of getting one has skyrocketed. I work at a university and my PI makes more than $400,000 a year. Maybe college would be more affordable if salary caps were placed professors at publicly funded universities and colleges. Im sorry - I am certain this will sound high and mighty, and I don't intend that - but since when should every job be available to everyone? And for the jobs where a degree is not needed - going to college teaches many things, not just what a job entails.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jul 27, 2016 3:37:20 GMT
I agree completely Mom. A college degree is necessary if one is going into the medical, engineering, mathematical or tech fields. It is not necessary just so someone can party four years in order to get a basic liberal arts degree that does nothing for anyone. If the student or mom and dad can afford to pay for a four year liberal arts degree, great. Go for it. But if they can't, then too bad; thems the breaks
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Post by freecharlie on Jul 27, 2016 3:40:31 GMT
OK, let's look at these one at a time. 1. Day care. No. Again, if you choose to have a baby, then plan on paying for it. If you can't then don't get pregnant. Why should the taxpayer or the employer have to foot the bill because someone wants a baby? 2. Medicaid: Although I don't like the idea, this proposal would be the easiest for me to swallow. However, the numbers would have to be higher. In my experience, people do not value what they have no financial stake in. We don't want people going to a doctor everytime they have a sniffle. Or if they want to, the rest of us shouldn't pay for it. 3. Loans for tuition: the interest rates on loans is already lower than the market loans. Students have 10 years from the date of graduation plus hardship deferments are easily obtained. Ask me how I know. Because I do a heck of a lot of bankruptcies and every one of the people with student loans has either a deferment or reduced payment. Again, before taking out ridiculous amounts of loans to attend an expensive school to study "English Literature" or "The History of Women int he Middle Ages", people should be thinking long and hard about how they will pay once they graduate. It doesn't take a Rhodes scholar to know that many of the college kids in ridiculous majors will never obtain employment in their field or make enough to pay back those loans. Once again, the predicament is caused by the lack of responsibility on the individual. Making it easier to push off paying loans, reducing tuition etc will only cost the rest of us money instead of the person who made the bad choice. IMO, as a society we want to "discourage" fiscally irresponsible decisions by students. Your proposal simply continues to encourage the wasteful dissipation of assets by an individual who will have no financial reason to make better choices. I totally get where you are coming from, but the fact is these programs are in place. They aren't going anywhere immediately, so why not make them less of a burden as we ween off of them. 1. wouldn't it be better to help with daycare costs than have the mother on welfare and food stamps without working? Wouldn't it be better to help with the costs so that the mother goes and gets an education, a better job, and pays back into the system 2. Some of the people on medicaid don't have the budgeting skills to figure it out. Start small. Then raise it, not hugely, but raise it to off set the costs. Again, most people aren't going to make a child go without medical care, so why not mitigate the cost a little 3. Since the job market is what it is right now and news story after news story tells us that the graduating students can't find jobs or can't find good paying jobs and are living with parents, maybe make it a bit easier. Since one side is advocating free college education, this could be a way to compromise. The thing is, neither side is getting what they want. In some instances one side is getting screwed. In others, the other side feels like they are getting screwed. Nothing is going to change in a sweeping change. Baby steps is more agreeable to people.
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Post by mom on Jul 27, 2016 3:41:49 GMT
My oldest is going to college in a year. He has known from the get go that Mom and Dad aren't footing the bill, entirely either. Son is expected to go to school and have a job. No 7 years of partying either.
We pay as we go. Can't afford something? Then we don't do it. College included.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Jul 27, 2016 3:47:27 GMT
. We need to cut military spending and more effectively manage the budget they do have. It's popular to complain about entitlements but very few people complain about the tremendous waste in the defense sector. It's disgusting that most of our active service members and veterans receive so little in exchange for their service while military contractors rake in hundreds of millions of dollars while failing to do their jobs properly or well. Have you listened to our veterans talk about the state of their equipment lately? There is a huge difference in stopping the lobbying for military contractors and funding the military. Do any of you really want to send our loved ones into battle with subpar equipment? We have equipped our middle eastern allies with better equipment than we are expecting our own men and women to use. We no longer have an elite military. We are not equipped for a war. And can you just imagine the outrage there would be if, God forbid, we are attacked and haven't made the resources available to retaliate? We can't have it both ways. SaveSave[ Who said anything about defunding the military? This kind of knee jerk reaction is one of the reasons our defense budget is so bloated. We need to ensure that the billions of dollars that go to the military are properly used. Do you realize that contractors grow fat and wealthy at the expense of our safety and the safety and well being of our service members? There is a huge difference between abolishing military spending and expecting the money that is spent to go to actually keeping us and our military members safe.
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scorpeao
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,521
Location: NorCal USA
Jun 25, 2014 21:04:54 GMT
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Post by scorpeao on Jul 27, 2016 3:48:44 GMT
The problem is that a college degree is like a high school diploma was 30 years ago. If you don't have a degree there are many jobs unavailable to you...jobs for which a degree is not needed. Sure, there are trade schools, but even those are outrageously priced. A degree has been cheapened while the cost of getting one has skyrocketed. I work at a university and my PI makes more than $400,000 a year. Maybe college would be more affordable if salary caps were placed professors at publicly funded universities and colleges. Im sorry - I am certain this will sound high and mighty, and I don't intend that - but since when should every job be available to everyone? And for the jobs where a degree is not needed - going to college teaches many things, not just what a job entails. What I'm saying is that jobs 30 years ago that only required a high school diploma now require degrees. I'm not saying that people who don't have degrees deserve jobs that traditionally required degrees. A college degree used to open so many doors....that isn't the case anymore. Now, to get those doors opened you need an advanced degree.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jul 27, 2016 3:52:48 GMT
This is the part that galls me. Exactly how is a student getting "screwed" by being required to fund his own education, make choices about his major and be responsible for those choices and to not expect to get it all for "free"? The only ones screwed are the taxpayers who foot the bill for irresponsibility on the part of these students. A baby step is not agreeable if it does not come with many strings attached; for example, if you are getting government money, you must stick to certain majors which are likely to lead to a job after graduation, you must complete your education in four years, you must pay back any student loans and you must stick to colleges whose tuitions make it likely that you can pay back your loans. The whole idea of carte blanche for the student at the expense of others is not a "baby step".
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scorpeao
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,521
Location: NorCal USA
Jun 25, 2014 21:04:54 GMT
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Post by scorpeao on Jul 27, 2016 3:53:15 GMT
Colleges pay and cost what the market will bear. Instead of offering "free college", reducing the people going to these colleges will force a reduction in employee salaries, etc. The free market would do it's job if the government would stay the f*ck out of it. And this would work if jobs, such as in the government sector, went back to just requiring high school diplomas. When was the last time you looked for a job? I have a degree, and I'd like to find a new job, but everything for which I'm qualified requires an advanced degree. These days a Master's degree is what a college degree was 30 years ago. I've read some of your other replies regarding this subject and I think you are out of touch with reality. It is almost impossible to finish college in 4 years, and even if one picks a degree in high demand there's no guarantee there'll be a job. A friend majored in engineering and graduated in 2010. The market was shit...it took him two years to find a job. Things aren't as easy as it was 30-40 years ago when you were graduating college. Finally, do you even know what tuition costs? It's not cheap like it was 30 years ago.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jul 27, 2016 3:54:15 GMT
This is the part that galls me. Exactly how is a student getting "screwed" by being required to fund his own education, make choices about his major and be responsible for those choices and to not expect to get it all for "free"? The only ones screwed are the taxpayers who foot the bill for irresponsibility on the part of these students. A baby step is not agreeable if it does not come with many strings attached; for example, if you are getting government money, you must stick to certain majors which are likely to lead to a job after graduation, you must complete your education in four years, you must pay back any student loans and you must stick to colleges whose tuitions make it likely that you can pay back your loans. Does it limit the student's choices? Sure. But that's not my problem or the problem of any other taxpayer. You do what you can afford. The whole idea of carte blanche for the student at the expense of others is not a "baby step".
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Post by femalebusiness on Jul 27, 2016 3:54:43 GMT
A good start would be putting the masive amounts of money spent on these campaigns to work for the American people instead. Yeah, like that's going to happen.
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Post by secondlife on Jul 27, 2016 3:54:57 GMT
The problem is that a college degree is like a high school diploma was 30 years ago. If you don't have a degree there are many jobs unavailable to you...jobs for which a degree is not needed. Sure, there are trade schools, but even those are outrageously priced. A degree has been cheapened while the cost of getting one has skyrocketed. I work at a university and my PI makes more than $400,000 a year. Maybe college would be more affordable if salary caps were placed professors at publicly funded universities and colleges. Im sorry - I am certain this will sound high and mighty, and I don't intend that - but since when should every job be available to everyone? And for the jobs where a degree is not needed - going to college teaches many things, not just what a job entails. What you basically just said is, since when should financial and career success be available to everyone? Right after you said, we should be looking to ourselves for solutions. And I don't think that works. College opens doors. I think if we don't look at how to make college affordable and effective we run the very real risk of closing off success for those without the means to get those doors open, perpetuating a cycle in which those with financial means are more able to further obtain success than those without. I grew up poor as dirt in rural Appalachia. My husband did too. The only way we achieved anything is by going to college. The only way we went to college is with grants and loans. Of course every job should have been open to younger us, with a whole life full of possibilities waiting. We had potential, we had ability - and we had disadvantages. I'm not saying our education should have been free. Just that it should be affordable for all the kids just like us who fought tooth and nail to get anywhere in life. If success isn't open to every person who has the fortitude to work for it then that is not what I think this country should be.
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Post by freecharlie on Jul 27, 2016 3:55:00 GMT
Who said anything about defunding the military? This kind of knee jerk reaction is one of the reasons our defense budget is so bloated. We need to ensure that the billions of dollars that go to the military are properly used. Do you realize that contractors grow fat and wealthy at the expense of our safety and the safety and well being of our service members? There is a huge difference between abolishing military spending and expecting the money that is spent to go to actually keeping us and our military members safe. I'd like to see them finish building the damn VA hospital in Denver. Somehow it got too big for its britches and has gone so far over budget it is pathetic and it keeps getting delayed due to needing more funding some of the costs special brazillian wood marble and granite throughout $10 million dollars for landscaping (this has been cut) a stupid ass aesthetically pleasing (to whom I don't know) design glass and steel So many others. This project needs to be done. WE need the VA hospital. It didn't have to cost this much and now it is costing even more. We are in the billions at this point for a hospital.
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Post by freecharlie on Jul 27, 2016 3:56:40 GMT
This is the part that galls me. Exactly how is a student getting "screwed" by being required to fund his own education, make choices about his major and be responsible for those choices and to not expect to get it all for "free"? The only ones screwed are the taxpayers who foot the bill for irresponsibility on the part of these students. A baby step is not agreeable if it does not come with many strings attached; for example, if you are getting government money, you must stick to certain majors which are likely to lead to a job after graduation, you must complete your education in four years, you must pay back any student loans and you must stick to colleges whose tuitions make it likely that you can pay back your loans. The whole idea of carte blanche for the student at the expense of others is not a "baby step". Sorry, I meant in general: liberal ideals vs conservative ideals, not specific to student loans. I fully believe that people should pay back their loans.
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Post by jamielynn on Jul 27, 2016 3:59:19 GMT
My two cents is if you paid no taxes in this year that means no refund.
None of this getting thousands back when paying nothing in. I get some it's a wash - I can swallow that. But getting what I paid in back while not working or working minimally - not okay.
I'm okay with childcare assistance as it allows people to get out and work. In fact, I think if you are applying for any benefits that should be given along with a swift get a job. No claims of not affording daycare and needing to stay home with 4 kids. Staying home is for those who can both afford it then choose to do so upon affording the option to stay home.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 5, 2024 8:28:39 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2016 4:00:52 GMT
We can fund those things. We choose not too. It's really not a difficult concept. It doesn't matter how you label it or which party presents it. If we wanted it we would make a choice to make it happen. W e say we want to be great bit what we really mean is we want greatness and we don't want to accept any responsibility for making that happen. We show that by the absurd rate of re election of our congress, and by insisting on a two party system, and by refusing all efforts of bipartisanship at the national level. We, the people, do this to ourselves by choice. Hold up. I want to be great and accept ALL the responsibility for it. What I don't accept is accepting the responsibility for people who want it but don't want to accept any responsibility for it. I cannot do both - I cannot provide for myself and also provide for someone who will not provide for themselves. How about you believe that all your tax dollars are going into the roads and bridges you drive on and all my tax dollars are going to the poor. Maybe that will make it more palatable for you I think in these situations it is easy to fall into black and white thinking and focus on where you think the system is failing instead of where it is actually succeeding. For every leech out there, there is someone who is just on the cusp of changing their lives and moving from poverty (I use the term loosely) and into a functional member of society who pays their own way and in fact stops taking your tax dollars like their parents might be doing. Also it is important to remember that the concept of government is the people. If a community has 2000 kids and they all want their kids educated, they decide to pool their resources and get the job done instead of each family repeating the same process over and over. That is what government does at its base level - pool our resources to get our stuff done. There is a lot of money out there. I see people (not even celebrities with an image) buying $200,000 watches. All power to them and it's their choice but it does tell me there is money out there. Whether you want to use it to tell the time or bring someone out of poverty is up to you and your beliefs about your fellow human beings. Some people call a free college education insane. I call a $200k watch insane. They both sound like extremes, but the reality is we mostly function in the middle.
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Post by papersilly on Jul 27, 2016 4:01:53 GMT
On the flip side, how is a Trump going to pay for the wall (since I'm pretty sure Mexico won't pay for it)? How will he round up and deport 11 million illegals?
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