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Post by I-95 on Aug 10, 2014 8:45:08 GMT
Welcome to Florida!
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Post by gar on Aug 10, 2014 9:33:17 GMT
I've got to say that I will not support any organization that is as hypocritical as many churches. Why is that being gay is the one of the only sexual sins that is still "wrong?" Adultery doesn't keep you from a church funeral, nor does premarital sex, divorce, multiple partners..., but by god, you can't be gay. >>>we need a shaking my head smiley<<<< Indeed.
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Post by formerpea on Aug 10, 2014 10:35:33 GMT
They have a FaceBook page I am gleefully waiting for this to go viral. Reviews cannot be deleted, so it looks like they won't get past the one star thing anytime soon!
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Post by monklady123 on Aug 10, 2014 11:34:18 GMT
Their Facebook page is already filled with the opinions of the public, and none of it was supportive.
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Post by Kelpea on Aug 10, 2014 12:08:48 GMT
This was my favorite response on their page so far. "In Hysterica 4:12-18, it says, "Blessed are the Holier Than Thou, for they have convinced themselves that the Earth is theirs, and theirs alone. Woe be unto anyone, anywhere, who fails to live up to their notions of good and evil. They shall be shunned, cast out, reviled." Just.awesome.
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Post by genny on Aug 10, 2014 13:34:58 GMT
That is so sad. It hurts my heart. My nephew is gay and I would be incensed if this happened to our family. And I am a Christian, although I rarely go to church these days.
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mallie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,253
Jul 3, 2014 18:13:13 GMT
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Post by mallie on Aug 10, 2014 13:42:43 GMT
If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. 9 For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; 10 but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. 13 And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love. Corinthians 13: 1-13
This church, sadly, is a very big clanging cymbal.
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Post by LavenderLayoutLady on Aug 10, 2014 13:56:15 GMT
Well, I'm pretty sure canceling the man's funeral is what God would want. *seething, extreme sarcasm*
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Post by Belia on Aug 10, 2014 13:57:26 GMT
I think this is horrible and very un-Christ like, as I understand it.
But at the same time, I can't help but wonder what the family was thinking by reaching out to a Baptist church. I mean, the Baptist stance on homosexuality is not exactly a secret.
At any rate, I'm glad the family was able to have a loving service to put their husband / son / friend to rest.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 10, 2014 19:41:48 GMT
I've got to say that I will not support any organization that is as hypocritical as many churches. then you shouldn't be on this board. It's full of hypocrites. I don't think I read a post on here that wasn't written by one.
says who? Last I heard premarital sex was still wrong, adultery is still wrong, etc. Just because these things happen, doesn't mean they aren't wrong.
you can find plenty of churches that would have one. the guy this post is about could have his in many, many churches. There are many, many churches in every city that don't uphold scripture. They don't teach it and don't follow it.
OH the hypocrisy of the peas! all those threads about how making 'gay' legal, open etc wouldn't interfere with anyone else's life... that they wouldn't expect a church to accept them etc.
That this family picked a church that openly doesn't support gay activity/marriage makes me think they did do it on purpose - to further their agenda.
inch by inch...
I've read a LOT of hatred on this thread but it wasn't the church or pastor doing the hating.
Bravo for that church and pastor.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 9, 2024 18:16:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 19:45:25 GMT
I've got to say that I will not support any organization that is as hypocritical as many churches. then you shouldn't be on this board. It's full of hypocrites. I don't think I read a post on here that wasn't written by one.
says who? Last I heard premarital sex was still wrong, adultery is still wrong, etc. Just because these things happen, doesn't mean they aren't wrong.
you can find plenty of churches that would have one. the guy this post is about could have his in many, many churches. There are many, many churches in every city that don't uphold scripture. They don't teach it and don't follow it.
OH the hypocrisy of the peas! all those threads about how making 'gay' legal, open etc wouldn't interfere with anyone else's life... that they wouldn't expect a church to accept them etc.
That this family picked a church that openly doesn't support gay activity/marriage makes me think they did do it on purpose - to further their agenda.
inch by inch...
I've read a LOT of hatred on this thread but it wasn't the church or pastor doing the hating.
Bravo for that church and pastor.
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 10, 2014 21:10:55 GMT
Have you heard of a church that refuses to have a funeral for a man who cheated on his wife or that had a child out of wedlock?
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Post by hop2 on Aug 10, 2014 22:17:24 GMT
I do agree that it is an awful thing to do to the surviving family. (which is whom the service was really for anyway )
However I do agree that the pastor most likely is not doing it out of hate, perhaps from a place of ignorance, but I do think that 'hate' is too strong a word to apply to a pastor who is asked to perform a sacrament that is in opposition of his beliefs. Was the young man even one of his parishioners? it doesn't sound like he was, so the pastor has no way of knowing him, and had no obligation to him or his family beyond what they had agreed upon. And yes canceling it the day before is a move that lacks compassion. This is something the church should have been more upfront about. If the church signed a contract with the family then they have breached the contract. I have used the church halls around here for girl scout things and I know the churches around here do have contracts and once signed they must be followed. (although they do have an out for a funeral for one of their own parishioners, with 24 hours warning. )
If we ever expect tolerance and understanding then we have to extend the same to others. Like attempting to understand the belief system the pastor holds. While I do believe and stand by the fact that everyone should have the same legal rights in this country. I also believe that we can not force religious entities to perform things contrary to their beliefs. understanding goes both ways.
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Post by librarylady on Aug 10, 2014 22:32:52 GMT
I'll just say that I don't find the pastor's behavior to be full of love and compassion, so I'd put it in the "hateful" category (hate being the opposite of love).
I agree with the comments that even if the family (or funeral home) selected the church for the size of the seating, it was shakey from the beginning, knowing the Baptist views of gay people. (Maybe this funeral home has an agreement to call this church for big crowds.)
I'll also toss out the challenge.......What did Jesus say about homosexuality? Not one of the disciples or writings by a disciple--but Jesus? Don't believe Jesus was preaching to shun, shame or avoid the gay person........IIRC, he said love your neighbor and he who is without sin to cast the first stones.........The Jesus I know would have conducted the funeral.
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Post by flanz on Aug 10, 2014 22:44:42 GMT
I hear you Bumpea! I felt the exact same way. In my case I got to the point where I felt "something" was missing from my life and so decided to go to the UU service to check it out. If you want to learn more about the faith, I encourage you to go to uua.org and look around. Also check out the 7 Guiding Principles. Thank you for the link, Flanz. I'll definitely check it out. L ETA: My disillusion with 'religion' is due in large part to the hypocrisy of it all. If one is to believe in the way Jesus led his life and wish to 'be like him', then religious exclusion would never happen. No one would be turned away at the church door for any reason. You're sounding like a U.U. already. Our congregations welcome ALL!
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Post by hop2 on Aug 10, 2014 23:26:08 GMT
I'll just say that I don't find the pastor's behavior to be full of love and compassion, so I'd put it in the "hateful" category (hate being the opposite of love).
I agree with the comments that even if the family (or funeral home) selected the church for the size of the seating, it was shakey from the beginning, knowing the Baptist views of gay people. (Maybe this funeral home has an agreement to call this church for big crowds.)
I'll also toss out the challenge.......What did Jesus say about homosexuality? Not one of the disciples or writings by a disciple--but Jesus? Don't believe Jesus was preaching to shun, shame or avoid the gay person........IIRC, he said love your neighbor and he who is without sin to cast the first stones.........The Jesus I know would have conducted the funeral.
There's a wide range of emotions in the gap between love and compassion and hate. There's a whole zillion of people in the world that I do not love, doesn't mean that i hate them either.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 10, 2014 23:50:22 GMT
I'll just say that I don't find the pastor's behavior to be full of love and compassion, so I'd put it in the "hateful" category (hate being the opposite of love).
I agree with the comments that even if the family (or funeral home) selected the church for the size of the seating, it was shakey from the beginning, knowing the Baptist views of gay people. (Maybe this funeral home has an agreement to call this church for big crowds.)
I'll also toss out the challenge.......What did Jesus say about homosexuality? Not one of the disciples or writings by a disciple--but Jesus? Don't believe Jesus was preaching to shun, shame or avoid the gay person........IIRC, he said love your neighbor and he who is without sin to cast the first stones.........The Jesus I know would have conducted the funeral.
He said marriage was between a MAN and a WOMAN. I don't think the Jesus I know would have...He didn't tell the woman at the well she could continue in her sin. Can you support your belief with scripture?
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MaryC
Full Member
Posts: 213
Jun 25, 2014 21:52:55 GMT
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Post by MaryC on Aug 11, 2014 0:19:14 GMT
From the other articles I have read, the pastor of the mother's church was the one actually officiating at the service, but that church was very small, so they asked if the funeral could be held at New Hope because some members of the mother's family attended there and the mother was baptized there.
It's very common in the south for small churches to ask larger churches for the use of space for special events - generally the only involvement the larger church has is having someone unlock the building so people can get in. I've attended dozens of weddings and funerals held in churches where a minister from another church officiated and the pastor of the "home" church wasn't even present.
Further, as a minister and a Christian, I believe he had the same obligation all Christians share - to be instruments of Christ's peace, to give comfort and hope to the grieving, to offer food and shelter to those in need, to welcome strangers in and offer them a place at Christ's table. Whether the deceased and his spouse were members of his church or not, his duty to them was one of Christian to someone in need, and Christ's own example shows us that he valued grace and compassion more than rigid adherence to the moral codes of his time.
He had an opportunity to set a true example of moral courage and compassion; to let mercy guide his conscience. Instead, he chose to listen to the voices of anger and fear rather than those of mercy and compassion. As a mother, I cannot imagine the pain it would cause to stand by my son's casket and get a phone call saying a church - any church - denied my son the dignity of a place to hold his funeral, as though he was less than human and his mere presence would contaminate the place. How can that possibly be an act Christ would approve?
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Post by moveablefeast on Aug 11, 2014 0:21:42 GMT
I belong to a conservative church, although I myself am not particularly conservative.
I know for certain that we would host this funeral. It is our belief that while we might choose which weddings we are comfortable hosting, any family approaching us for a funeral should be accommodated if even remotely possible and our policy is specifically NOT to choose to decline particular funerals on an ideological basis.
Families are rarely so vulnerable as they are at a time of loss and I can't think of many better opportunities to show people the love of Jesus than when they are planning a funeral for a loved one.
Jesus ministered his love and transformation to me when I was in the darkest and ugliest sin of my life. Was I deserving of it at all? No. That is why it's grace. It's unmerited and unearned. It's scandalous. But I would rather scandalously embrace someone I shouldn't than make the other mistake.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 9, 2024 18:16:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 0:24:10 GMT
I understand not hosting a wedding if it goes against your beliefs. But why does it matter for a funeral? We are all sinners according to Christianity, correct? So why is he not worthy of a funeral but all others are?
And yes it is hate, sugar coat it all you want but to turn this down the day before for a family in their darkest time is hate. Period.
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Post by hop2 on Aug 11, 2014 0:41:18 GMT
From the other articles I have read, the pastor of the mother's church was the one actually officiating at the service, but that church was very small, so they asked if the funeral could be held at New Hope because some members of the mother's family attended there and the mother was baptized there. It's very common in the south for small churches to ask larger churches for the use of space for special events - generally the only involvement the larger church has is having someone unlock the building so people can get in. I've attended dozens of weddings and funerals held in churches where a minister from another church officiated and the pastor of the "home" church wasn't even present. Further, as a minister and a Christian, I believe he had the same obligation all Christians share - to be instruments of Christ's peace, to give comfort and hope to the grieving, to offer food and shelter to those in need, to welcome strangers in and offer them a place at Christ's table. Whether the deceased and his spouse were members of his church or not, his duty to them was one of Christian to someone in need, and Christ's own example shows us that he valued grace and compassion more than rigid adherence to the moral codes of his time. He had an opportunity to set a true example of moral courage and compassion; to let mercy guide his conscience. Instead, he chose to listen to the voices of anger and fear rather than those of mercy and compassion. As a mother, I cannot imagine the pain it would cause to stand by my son's casket and get a phone call saying a church - any church - denied my son the dignity of a place to hold his funeral, as though he was less than human and his mere presence would contaminate the place. How can that possibly be an act Christ would approve? You may see it that way and I may see it that way, but not all denominations of churches see it that way. I do think what the pastor did sucked. But unfortunately, I have to accept that he holds a different point of view than I do and he us entitled to that point of view. I am absolutely positive that I do not want to be forced to adhere to his point of view in my life, so I can not expect him to be forced to mine. The church should have asked those questions before agreeing to allow anyone to us the facilities. They should have been upfront about their beliefs. What he did lacked forethought and compassion. It sucked. If the family had a contract for the use if the facilities and they incurred an extra expense moving them then they could go after the venue for breach of contract. If they did not then I don't think they have any further recourse. Certainly the publicity has given the community a true picture of this church and they can all decide for themselves if that view aligns with their own. I get totally pissed off when certain Christian denominations try to cram their way of thinking down my throat but in return I try not to cram my way of thinking down their throat. Hopefully they can get the message eventually and leave me in peace with my own beliefs as i try to leave them in peace with theirs. If that respect does not go both ways it won't go at all.
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MaryC
Full Member
Posts: 213
Jun 25, 2014 21:52:55 GMT
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Post by MaryC on Aug 11, 2014 0:51:32 GMT
I agree, and I don't think there would have been an issue if the family had been told up front instead of telling them the night before. Apparently the delay meant the family couldn't notify everyone in time and some people ended up missing the funeral because they went to the church and it was locked up.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 9, 2024 18:16:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 1:10:25 GMT
I am absolutely positive that I do not want to be forced to adhere to his point of view in my life, so I can not expect him to be forced to mine. That is where I am.
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gottapeanow
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,818
Jun 25, 2014 20:56:09 GMT
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Post by gottapeanow on Aug 11, 2014 1:22:56 GMT
"I understand not hosting a wedding if it goes against your beliefs. But why does it matter for a funeral? We are all sinners according to Christianity, correct? So why is he not worthy of a funeral but all others are?"
Quoting and agreeing with this from [HASH]scrappower.
I don't think the pastor was necessarily hateful although I see why some of you feel that way.
I feel badly that happened to his family during this difficult time, as MF so eloquently stated.
Lisa
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Post by Skypea on Aug 11, 2014 9:07:12 GMT
From the other articles I have read, the pastor of the mother's church was the one actually officiating at the service, but that church was very small, so they asked if the funeral could be held at New Hope because some members of the mother's family attended there and the mother was baptized there. It's very common in the south for small churches to ask larger churches for the use of space for special events - generally the only involvement the larger church has is having someone unlock the building so people can get in. I've attended dozens of weddings and funerals held in churches where a minister from another church officiated and the pastor of the "home" church wasn't even present. Further, as a minister and a Christian, I believe he had the same obligation all Christians share - to be instruments of Christ's peace, to give comfort and hope to the grieving, to offer food and shelter to those in need, to welcome strangers in and offer them a place at Christ's table. Whether the deceased and his spouse were members of his church or not, his duty to them was one of Christian to someone in need, and Christ's own example shows us that he valued grace and compassion more than rigid adherence to the moral codes of his time. He had an opportunity to set a true example of moral courage and compassion; to let mercy guide his conscience. Instead, he chose to listen to the voices of anger and fear rather than those of mercy and compassion. As a mother, I cannot imagine the pain it would cause to stand by my son's casket and get a phone call saying a church - any church - denied my son the dignity of a place to hold his funeral, as though he was less than human and his mere presence would contaminate the place. How can that possibly be an act Christ would approve? Because someone printed what you posted above does not make it true. If members of the family attended that church, they should have known better. Tho, attending a church does not make one a member of a church, nor does it make one a Christian. What is common to do in some churches doesn't necessarily mean it is done in ALL churches. Not all ministers have total say over what happens in the church. The people = the 'church' (assembly). How could He have gone to the Temple and overturned the tables of the moneychangers? And said some not nice things to them? Why didn't He just have a friendly talk with them and buy them lunch?
How could He have said this - Matthew 7
21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
How could He have turned away the rich young ruler just because he wouldn't sell all that he had and give it to the poor?
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Post by Skypea on Aug 11, 2014 10:06:40 GMT
I understand not hosting a wedding if it goes against your beliefs. But why does it matter for a funeral? We are all sinners according to Christianity, correct? So why is he not worthy of a funeral but all others are? And yes it is hate, sugar coat it all you want but to turn this down the day before for a family in their darkest time is hate. Period.
Why wouldn't it matter? It's a Christian church and a funeral for a Christian is their earthly send off to meet with the Lord. While we're all sinners, Christians are saved by the grace of our Lord. Sinning is no longer a way of life for a Christian (which doesn't mean they don't sin).
Marriage is an earthly relationship symbolic of that of a Christian with Christ. The 'church' (Christians) are called the 'bride of Christ' in scripture. That's why the future celebration of Christians with Christ is called the 'marriage supper of the Lamb'. A funeral service is a celebration of a Christian who has gone home to meet with the Lord. What is said at a funeral for a Christian is not the same as what is said at a funeral for a non Christian.
The church building is considered a sacred place. If this guy is living with another guy and considered 'married' to him that is a direct violation of God. In order to be a Christian one would have to repent of sin- turn away from it, not engage in it. The guy who died hadn't repented (turned away) from his sinful lifestyle.
It would be a desecration to hold a funeral there for this person. It would be a direct mocking of God and the relationship / institution He created - marriage.
There are scriptures regarding mocking God too.
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Post by heartcat on Aug 11, 2014 11:24:28 GMT
Setting aside any rightness or wrongness of the church's stance on homosexuality or their choice to pick and choose which wedding ceremonies, funerals, etc. fall in line with their beliefs....I think that if your organization feels THAT strongly about an issue, the onus is on you to determine whether or not someone meets your criteria BEFORE you agree to allow them access to your facility.
I would be far more understanding if, at the time the family was trying to make arrangements, a representative of the church had told them that they were sorry but they could not offer their facility because they felt it would be condoning something that they believed was wrong.
But to schedule a funeral, and then to cancel it, is inexcusable to my mind. They had a responsibility to determine whether or not this was something they could/would allow before giving permission and allowing people to make arrangements.
It's not about whether or not they have a right to feel as they do about homosexuality or holding services for a deceased gay man. Don't want to? Fine, that is your right. But if this is going to be a deal breaker you'd darned well better get all the information you need BEFORE you tell a grieving family they can hold a service for their loved one at your church.
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Post by mollycoddle on Aug 11, 2014 12:37:59 GMT
The entire episode is bizarre and sad. Canceling the day before a funeral? Disgraceful.
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eisforennui
Junior Member
Posts: 50
Aug 10, 2014 11:11:24 GMT
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Post by eisforennui on Aug 11, 2014 12:51:27 GMT
It would be a desecration to hold a funeral there for this person. It would be a direct mocking of God and the relationship / institution He created - marriage. i am so very happy i don't live in your little world full of hatred, Skypea. in the bible, Jesus never defined marriage as between a man and a woman - he just talked about adultery. Jesus sounds like a pretty decent guy, imo. i think that he'd much prefer people in loving relationships than suffering apart because some crotchety dude claimed a god talked to him and told him loving other people of the same sex is wrong.
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Post by formerpea on Aug 11, 2014 13:18:00 GMT
FWIW - they took their FaceBook page down
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