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Post by Skypea on Aug 11, 2014 23:59:59 GMT
I agree with those of you who have posted about "leveling" sin. Sin is sin. None of it is worse than other sins. Different churches operate by different sets of rules. It doesn't make it right. They'll each have to answer to God someday for whatever sins of commission or omission that they are guilty of. As will I. I doubt any Christian posted it was because of a 'level' of sin. They don't need another reason. They have plenty starting with hating Christ and what He stands for (scriptural) and that they don't want to turn from their way of life. Why? Should Christians do what non Christians want them to do even if not supported by scripture? do you believe the deceased was a Christian? It was a Christian church.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 0:12:26 GMT
I don't believe for a moment a pastor is motivated by hate. I believe he is motivated by what he believes to be right and wrong. Just because we don't believe as he does doesn't mean he is motivated by hate for gay people. That's what I believe. And I believe you are naive regarding pastors. Nothing in the bible days a gay man shouldn't have a funeral. Not one thing. He was quoted as saying "Based on our preaching of the scripture, we would have been in error to allow the service in our church. I'm not trying to condemn anyone's lifestyle, but at the same time, I am a man of God, and I have to stand up for my principles." Based on his quote I don't believe that comes from a place of hate, but of a belief in right and wrong.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 0:14:46 GMT
And I believe you are naive regarding pastors. Nothing in the bible days a gay man shouldn't have a funeral. Not one thing. He was quoted as saying "Based on our preaching of the scripture, we would have been in error to allow the service in our church. I'm not trying to condemn anyone's lifestyle, but at the same time, I am a man of God, and I have to stand up for my principles." Based on his quote I don't believe that comes from a place of hate, but of a belief in right and wrong. And I disagree. You don't seem to know the definition of hate. Nothing any of us say seems to be getting through so keep going with your naive thoughts that no pastor is hateful. You are sadly wrong.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 0:20:23 GMT
He was quoted as saying "Based on our preaching of the scripture, we would have been in error to allow the service in our church. I'm not trying to condemn anyone's lifestyle, but at the same time, I am a man of God, and I have to stand up for my principles." Based on his quote I don't believe that comes from a place of hate, but of a belief in right and wrong. And I disagree. You don't seem to know the definition of hate. Nothing any of us say seems to be getting through so keep going with your naive thoughts that no pastor is hateful. You are sadly wrong. As Gar says, we are talking about this pastor.
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Pinky Zebra
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Post by Pinky Zebra on Aug 12, 2014 0:26:25 GMT
I agree with those of you who have posted about "leveling" sin. Sin is sin. None of it is worse than other sins. Different churches operate by different sets of rules. It doesn't make it right. They'll each have to answer to God someday for whatever sins of commission or omission that they are guilty of. As will I. I doubt any Christian posted it was because of a 'level' of sin. I'm pretty sure I saw, somewhere in this thread, that someone referred to some sins being different than others. I'll try to find it.They don't need another reason. They have plenty starting with hating Christ and what He stands for (scriptural) and that they don't want to turn from their way of life. Arguing your point to death doesn't exactly help. I get where you're coming from. But I don't agree with your methods. Why? Should Christians do what non Christians want them to do even if not supported by scripture? do you believe the deceased was a Christian? It was a Christian church.
I don't know if the deceased was a Christian or not. It doesn't matter to me. I don't think this church should be forced to host this man's funeral. But I think it would have gone a long way, for Christianity, to host it. Even if they don't agree with his lifestyle choice. It comes down to Jesus. The church hosts a variety of events to known sinners all the time. That's already been pointed out repeatedly. If a sinner isn't welcome in the church - - they're doing it wrong. It may be time to remove the plank from your (general you) eye. The church is full of sinners.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 12, 2014 0:42:09 GMT
When the Bible talks about approaching our brothers and sisters about sinful behavior, it is talking about believer-to-believer communication. I don't think it's ever loving, right, or effective to tell a non-believer that they are going to hell. Even between believers, it's tricky.. yes, it is believer to believer. Why would a believer tell another believer they are going to hell?
In Matthew chapter 7, Jesus says:
So, this is believer to believer...
again, with the disciples it was believer to believer... while everyone sins at sometime, a Christian repents and changes from living a lifestyle of sin. How do you know that's what he did? Has he said that is why he did it? Otherwise, you are judging him - not even based on fact.
loving someone does not include helping them sin, approving their sin or pretending it isn't sin...
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Post by Freefallfast on Aug 12, 2014 0:45:33 GMT
And if the Pastor gave in to the voices of the members of this church (small c) without leading them with and into grace and mercy, then I repeat CHURCHIANITY vs CHRISTIANITY. Lessons can be learned on both sides. But the biggest lesson should be churches that claim to be Christian should lead with Christ. Otherwise you are a club. Be what you are but leave Jesus out of it if you are not a follower of His.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 3:05:34 GMT
This thread is the perfect example of why I will not have a funeral, because of churches like the one described. I've heard it said over and over again they are for the living. This is simply not true when your only option for a large enough church, has a *requirement* for the Bishop of that church to speak at the funeral and they speak about their church and IT'S BLESSINGS when the deceased is no longer a believer or a member. It is their right because they own the church, but I do not want that included in my funeral. I would be very interested to know if an openly gay person IN a relationship was ever allowed to have a funeral at an LDS chapel. I can assure you people who have committed suicide, divorced (not because of cheating), and committed adultery, have had funerals there.
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stittsygirl
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Post by stittsygirl on Aug 12, 2014 3:23:49 GMT
This thread is the perfect example of why I will not have a funeral, because of churches like the one described. I've heard it said over and over again they are for the living. This is simply not true when your only option for a large enough church, has a *requirement* for the Bishop of that church to speak at the funeral and they speak about their church and IT'S BLESSINGS when the deceased is no longer a believer or a member. It is their right because they own the church, but I do not want that included in my funeral. I would be very interested to know if an openly gay person IN a relationship was ever allowed to have a funeral at an LDS chapel. I can assure you people who have committed suicide, divorced (not because of cheating), and committed adultery, have had funerals there. I would think it would be at the bishop's discretion, but most bishops I've known would probably allow the funeral of an openly gay member in a relationship in a chapel, if not just out of compassion. It would also give the bishop a teaching experience that LDS funerals are admonished to be.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 12, 2014 8:07:20 GMT
And if the Pastor gave in to the voices of the members of this church (small c) without leading them with and into grace and mercy, then I repeat CHURCHIANITY vs CHRISTIANITY. Lessons can be learned on both sides.. are you Catholic?
yes, according to His Word - not that of the world.
there are many of them out there - and they do leave Jesus out of it even if they toss His name around sometimes.
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eisforennui
Junior Member
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Aug 10, 2014 11:11:24 GMT
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Post by eisforennui on Aug 12, 2014 11:13:10 GMT
i am so very happy i don't live in your little world full of hatred, Skypea. in the bible, Jesus never defined marriage as between a man and a woman - he just talked about adultery. Jesus sounds like a pretty decent guy, imo. i think that he'd much prefer people in loving relationships than suffering apart because some crotchety dude claimed a god talked to him and told him loving other people of the same sex is wrong.
Matthew 19 (NKJV) 3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."
yeah, i read this too. i know how to look up bible verses. HOWEVER, he did NOT say anywhere that the only way to define marriage is between a man and a woman. AND he said nothing about love being only between a man and a woman. Jesus isn't out of Leviticus. atheists can read the bible too.
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eisforennui
Junior Member
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Aug 10, 2014 11:11:24 GMT
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Post by eisforennui on Aug 12, 2014 11:18:29 GMT
You make me so sad, Skypea. You keep cutting and pasting reasons for us to hate other people. The Jesus I was raised with was all about love and inclusion. Although I'm not a religious person anymore I do believe that your hateful version of Christian beliefs are about as sad as it gets. oh thank you for saying what i was too angry to articulate. it isn't often i think of a person as past redemption, but people who use their religion as a shield from the "bad guys", as Skypea does, just makes me want to puke. i went to a Catholic school and never thought that Jesus was a bad dude who discriminated based on sexuality. if he'd wash the leper's feet or the prostitute's feet, you'd be sure he'd wash a gay man's feet, and possibly toss some glitter on there, too.
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Country Ham
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Post by Country Ham on Aug 12, 2014 11:39:08 GMT
But I think it would have gone a long way, for Christianity, to host it.
I have kind avoided this discussion but these sort of comments jumped out at me. Others said similar things but we can't multiquote in a thread. How would it of gone a long way for Christianity? Because they canceled it it made the news. Because it made the news it became a topic for discussion. If this particular pastor hadn't canceled the funeral would we be discussing it? Do you think an article would of been published recognizing that while this church took a biblical stand against homosexuality they did the funeral? I don't think anyone noticed till the funeral was canceled. I think if he hadn't canceled the funeral his church might of lost members but I think the church and Christianity would of maintained status quo. Those of you professing disdain for churches/christianity because of this type of behavior would your attitude had improved if he had done this funeral? Would you of even heard about it?
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Post by redayh on Aug 12, 2014 13:23:05 GMT
I love the way that some are quick to quote every single scripture that supports their intolerance, and even find exception to Matthew 7:1 to make it only apply to them.
But I guess some of you wouldn't be found wanting.
Or whatever.
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Pinky Zebra
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I love Daryl Dixon. I want to lick his face and have his babies.
Posts: 169
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Post by Pinky Zebra on Aug 12, 2014 13:42:18 GMT
I have kind avoided this discussion but these sort of comments jumped out at me. Others said similar things but we can't multiquote in a thread. How would it of gone a long way for Christianity? Because they canceled it it made the news. Because it made the news it became a topic for discussion. If this particular pastor hadn't canceled the funeral would we be discussing it? Do you think an article would of been published recognizing that while this church took a biblical stand against homosexuality they did the funeral? I don't think anyone noticed till the funeral was canceled. I think if he hadn't canceled the funeral his church might of lost members but I think the church and Christianity would of maintained status quo. Those of you professing disdain for churches/christianity because of this type of behavior would your attitude had improved if he had done this funeral? Would you of even heard about it? It would have gone a long way because the church would have shown love for someone, for someone's family, whether they agreed with their lifestyle or not. Their goal never should have been, nor I doubt it was, to draw attention to themselves. Sure, the church might have lost members if the service had been performed. Entirely possible. It's not something that would cause me to leave a church. Basically because, as I've said earlier, the church is already full of sinners. Me included. There's always room for more. I'm not suggesting the church be forced by the government to host this man's funeral. Not at all. I'm also not against the church standing up for what they believe and how they feel Christ is leading them. Situations like this beg the question - - is Christ leading this church? Is the pastoral staff following Christ's lead or man's? I don't know. I'm not there. I'm not privy to the details of what ultimately led to the cancellation. Any opportunity we have, as Christians, to allow Christ to show in us, is something we should embrace. Look - - I go to church. I'm pretty involved in my church. But one thing I am not is religious. Christianity is not a religion. It's a relationship. For me, it's about my relationship with Christ. I try to find a church that most aligns with how my relationship with Christ is. You pose an excellent question though. One I'd like to know the answer to by any Refupea who has suggested that this particular instance only validates their disdain for Christianity. If this church changed their mind and hosted this man's service, would it have changed your opinion about Christianity?
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Post by scrapqueen01 on Aug 12, 2014 14:02:59 GMT
I'm another who thinks the pastor should have known all the facts ahead of time before agreeing to do the funeral. I can see how maybe this fact was left out as the family was grieving for their loved one. Going ahead with the funeral could have caused members to leave but no one knows that for certain. Like Country Ham said if the funeral had gone on as planned then this wouldn't even be news. With the internet and social media people tend to put this stuff out there and then it becomes news. If we didn't have the internet and just basic media like we use to have then even if the funeral was cancelled no one would have known except for the local area.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 12, 2014 14:18:06 GMT
I have kind avoided this discussion but these sort of comments jumped out at me. Others said similar things but we can't multiquote in a thread. How would it of gone a long way for Christianity? Because they canceled it it made the news. Because it made the news it became a topic for discussion. If this particular pastor hadn't canceled the funeral would we be discussing it? Do you think an article would of been published recognizing that while this church took a biblical stand against homosexuality they did the funeral? I don't think anyone noticed till the funeral was canceled. I think if he hadn't canceled the funeral his church might of lost members but I think the church and Christianity would of maintained status quo. Those of you professing disdain for churches/christianity because of this type of behavior would your attitude had improved if he had done this funeral? Would you of even heard about it? ch, fyi- what's in your 'quote' box I didn't say. I think pz did.
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PLurker
Prolific Pea
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Jun 28, 2014 3:48:49 GMT
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Post by PLurker on Aug 12, 2014 14:40:52 GMT
Why wouldn't it matter? It's a Christian church and a funeral for a Christian is their earthly send off to meet with the Lord. While we're all sinners, Christians are saved by the grace of our Lord. Sinning is no longer a way of life for a Christian (which doesn't mean they don't sin).
Marriage is an earthly relationship symbolic of that of a Christian with Christ. The 'church' (Christians) are called the 'bride of Christ' in scripture. That's why the future celebration of Christians with Christ is called the 'marriage supper of the Lamb'. A funeral service is a celebration of a Christian who has gone home to meet with the Lord. What is said at a funeral for a Christian is not the same as what is said at a funeral for a non Christian.
The church building is considered a sacred place. If this guy is living with another guy and considered 'married' to him that is a direct violation of God. In order to be a Christian one would have to repent of sin- turn away from it, not engage in it. The guy who died hadn't repented (turned away) from his sinful lifestyle.
It would be a desecration to hold a funeral there for this person. It would be a direct mocking of God and the relationship / institution He created - marriage.
There are scriptures regarding mocking God too.
If the church feels so strongly about this, why didn't they determine that the deceased person wasn't worthy of a Christian send off before promising the church to the family? That's my problem with this mess. I don't care if they don't want to hold funerals for gay people or gay-married people. What I care about is that they canceled the day before the funeral. In what world is that okay? This is what I was thinking as I read about this mess. If they believe what they believe, fine, have a pre-screening process or something. Not the it seems a go until last minute cancel. That seems cruel.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 12, 2014 14:54:56 GMT
You make me so sad, Skypea. You keep cutting and pasting reasons for us to hate other people. The Jesus I was raised with was all about love and inclusion. Although I'm not a religious person anymore I do believe that your hateful version of Christian beliefs are about as sad as it gets. oh thank you for saying what i was too angry to articulate. it isn't often i think of a person as past redemption, but people who use their religion as a shield from the "bad guys", as Skypea does, just makes me want to puke. i went to a Catholic school and never thought that Jesus was a bad dude who discriminated based on sexuality. if he'd wash the leper's feet or the prostitute's feet, you'd be sure he'd wash a gay man's feet, and possibly toss some glitter on there, too. sign up under another pname liz? replying to yourself? the only things I've cut/paste are scripture - since I didn't write it, it's taken from the Bible. I'm not religious either. Christianity isn't a religion. I went to Catholic schools too - I know what they teach. It isn't the Bible, it's the CCC. You didn't learn a lot about Jesus thru the CCC. Might want to check how the CC believes about homosexuality before giving them a thumbs up. liz - He is about more than love and inclusion. He does have requirements. He will be the judge - and He says He will judge according to His word. That makes it a good idea to find out what the word actually does say, not what someone told you it says. There's a lot in there about wrath and judgment. A lot of peas have posted what they think the Bible says or how they think Jesus would be. The Bible tells us what it does say and what Jesus is really like... Those who don't know Him don't really want to hear the truth about those two things.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 14:55:58 GMT
Again where does it say in the bible that a gay man can't have a funeral?
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Post by Skypea on Aug 12, 2014 15:12:40 GMT
Matthew 19 (NKJV) 3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."
yeah, i read this too. i know how to look up bible verses. HOWEVER, he did NOT say anywhere that the only way to define marriage is between a man and a woman. AND he said nothing about love being only between a man and a woman. Jesus isn't out of Leviticus. atheists can read the bible too. yes, He did. By giving us 1 way to define it. Don't make things up. Don't add to scripture. Yes, He does - there are several different definitions of love tho. It depends on which word (Hebrew/greek) was used.
Actually, Jesus was in the OT. Anyone can read the words, understanding it is a different story.
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~Lauren~
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Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Aug 12, 2014 17:39:20 GMT
FFS...it's a Baptist Church. Any ignorant fool is going to know (or should know) that the Baptists do not advocate or accept homosexuals.
IMO, asking the church to perform religious rights that you know is against their creed is just a way to cause a ruckess when the church declines. It gives people the chance to go to the media and for the members of this board to, yet again, express their righteous indignation about any organization that will not accomodate gays.
The rest of us don't get to tell the church which rules they'll follow. You think the church is hypocritical; fine. But so what? The same exact words and phrases have been stated here so many times that they are losing any impact.
But have at it. I know how good it makes some of you feel to express your "tolerance".
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Post by lucyg on Aug 12, 2014 18:00:10 GMT
FFS...it's a Baptist Church. Any ignorant fool is going to know (or should know) that the Baptists do not advocate or accept homosexuals. IMO, asking the church to perform religious rights that you know is against their creed is just a way to cause a ruckess when the church declines. It gives people the chance to go to the media and for the members of this board to, yet again, express their righteous indignation about any organization that will not accomodate gays. The rest of us don't get to tell the church which rules they'll follow. You think the church is hypocritical; fine. But so what? The same exact words and phrases have been stated here so many times that they are losing any impact. But have at it. I know how good it makes some of you feel to express your "tolerance". Your post might make some kind of sense, IF the church had actually declined to host the funeral up front. But they didn't, they agreed to host it, then they canceled the day before. Very poor behavior, and I doubt they would have made the news at all if they'd just said no in the first place. As you say, "everyone" knows the Baptists (some of them, anyway ... I know there are different kinds of Baptists, and some are more conservative than others) don't really approve of gay people. And they weren't being asked to perform any "rites." The family's own clergyman was going to perform the service.
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Post by lucyg on Aug 12, 2014 18:06:38 GMT
Just for the record, I am not a Christian and I absolutely do NOT "hate" Jesus. I am merely uninterested, beyond an academic interest. I also do not hate Christianity. I do think some Christians behave badly in the name of Jesus, though. ETA I don't actually know anyone who hates Christ or what he stands for. Most people are pretty respectful, whether they are believers or not.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 12, 2014 18:21:51 GMT
When did god make you the expert on all things Jesus-related, Skypea? You have a very arrogant attitude; you behave as if you're the only one in the entire world who's a REAL Christian. As I said earlier, you make me sad. Small-minded people always do.
liz, if you want to attack me start a separate thread.
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Pinky Zebra
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I love Daryl Dixon. I want to lick his face and have his babies.
Posts: 169
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Jun 26, 2014 5:37:40 GMT
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Post by Pinky Zebra on Aug 12, 2014 18:38:52 GMT
Just for the record, I am not a Christian and I absolutely do NOT "hate" Jesus. I am merely uninterested, beyond an academic interest. I also do not hate Christianity. I do think some Christians behave badly in the name of Jesus, though. ETA I don't actually know anyone who hates Christ or what he stands for. Most people are pretty respectful, whether they are believers or not. Well said, Lucy. I'm glad to hear that you don't hate either Christ or those who follow Him. Most people are pretty respectful. Once again, it's the extremists (on both sides) who come across as the raving lunatics. I'm not not here to argue theology with anyone. I feel like I need to love Jesus and love others. ETA: This church had an opportunity to do just that. Love Jesus and love others. That's my point. They had an opportunity and they missed it.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 12, 2014 18:49:22 GMT
FFS...it's a Baptist Church. Any ignorant fool is going to know (or should know) that the Baptists do not advocate or accept homosexuals. IMO, asking the church to perform religious rights that you know is against their creed is just a way to cause a ruckus when the church declines. It gives people the chance to go to the media and for the members of this board to, yet again, express their righteous indignation about any organization that will not accommodate gays. The rest of us don't get to tell the church which rules they'll follow. You think the church is hypocritical; fine. But so what? The same exact words and phrases have been stated here so many times that they are losing any impact. But have at it. I know how good it makes some of you feel to express your "tolerance". AMEN! Many here - who don't want ANYONE (not even God) telling them what to do/how to live - sure are quick and vicious in telling the 'body of Christ' what to do and how to do it! They sure are wanting the appearance (of this deceased person they don't know) of him having his last gathering on earth under cover of a Baptist church and minister. When during life did that person ever enter the doors of that church? talk with that minister? Once you are dead, it is too late.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 12, 2014 19:01:57 GMT
John 15:18
“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you."
it isn't a lone verse on the subject
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Post by Skypea on Aug 12, 2014 19:11:52 GMT
This thread is the perfect example of why I will not have a funeral, because of churches like the one described.
don't blame the church or this thread. You gave 2 excuses. A church isn't required to have a funeral. Nor is it required that you read this thread.
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grinningcat
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Aug 12, 2014 19:15:24 GMT
Oh look. Skypea being obtuse and continuing to give Christianity a bad name. SSDD. As much as things change, they stay the same. FFS, I really hope she's just blowing smoke up all our asses and doesn't actually believe the crap she spews.
The church was wrong. Period. End of story.
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