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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 13:22:55 GMT
I thought about this yesterday after reading about it here.
I understand that people of certain religious beliefs feel that being gay is a sin, and that they should not have to "condone" that sin.
However, a GOOD pastor should be kind, accepting, loving, and understanding enough to be able to hold a funeral for any kind of sinner -- gay or not. There's no such thing as a gay funeral, so it's not like that's an issue like marrying two people of the same sex would be. He wouldn't need to discuss this man's sexual preferences, any more than he'd need to discuss the sexual preferences of any other deceased person. I don't think I've ever been to a funeral where anyone talks about what someone prefers in bed.
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Post by songbird on Aug 11, 2014 13:50:09 GMT
Here's my POV and stance:
It is not the job of any Christian or person to stand in condemnation of another human being. So while the church is spouting off about it being a sin, remember the other scriptures where he said that he who is without sin may cast the first stone, and that if you don't love one other, you are a like a noisy gong or clanging symbol to God? Yeah, just ignore those because it's so much better to look down your nose at others instead of loving them where they are. So-called Christians who do this make me ashamed to be one. The Christian church has missed THE memo: LOVE because that's what Jesus did, and that's what Jesus would do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 14:34:21 GMT
"That this family picked a church that openly doesn't support gay activity/marriage makes me think they did do it on purpose - to further their agenda."
Skybar, I have a gay family member. Could you remind me of my agenda? I forgot.
This church certainly provides services to all kinds of sinners. How many couples do you think they've married who were living together, or already having sex? I guess the gay sin is bigger than the sex-before-marriage sin? What about those who have committed the abortion sin? Where's that on the sin scale? Would he allow a funeral for an abortion-getter? An adulterer? A thief? Seems to me that this pastor is ranking sins. Gross.
Lastly, songbird, your avatar looks like a glittery penis. I like it.
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Post by gar on Aug 11, 2014 14:39:21 GMT
"That this family picked a church that openly doesn't support gay activity/marriage makes me think they did do it on purpose - to further their agenda." Skybar, I have a gay family member. Could you remind me of my agenda? I forgot. This church certainly provides services to all kinds of sinners. How many couples do you think they've married who were living together, or already having sex? I guess the gay sin is bigger than the sex-before-marriage sin? What about those who have committed the abortion sin? Where's that on the sin scale? Would he allow a funeral for an abortion-getter? An adulterer? A thief? Seems to me that this pastor is ranking sins. Gross. Lastly, songbird, your avatar looks like a glittery penis. I like it. I agree with everything in your post....especially the glittery penis bit
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eisforennui
Junior Member
Posts: 50
Aug 10, 2014 11:11:24 GMT
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Post by eisforennui on Aug 11, 2014 14:39:53 GMT
the gay agenda is clearly to make all the non-gay people gay. GAYS EVERYWHERE!!
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Post by pastlifepea on Aug 11, 2014 15:58:06 GMT
I think it is absolute garbage. That said, I suspect the pastor of the church was put in a position where he felt he had to do this. I would guess he already knew the deceased was gay and wasn't particularly concerned but the parishioners got wind of it and created an uproar. Churches are supported by and 100% dependent on tithes, offerings, and gifts from parishioners. Without this support, there is no money to pay the pastor or keep and maintain the church. If a bunch of the "supporters" are threatening to leave your church and/or withdraw financial support, it would leave you in a very uncomfortable position. I think caving was the wrong decision because as previous posters have mentioned, this is not showing love, compassion, or caring...things that we are taught Jesus found very important.
Maybe the parishioners were worried that this funeral would be nothing but a thinly disguised gay party with thumping techno music and scantily leather clad men twerking on each other. The stereotypes are not fair to people and need to stop. When are we going to get to the point where people are not viewed as defective, promiscuous, of less value, or less deserving of basic rights (marriage, etc.) because they are gay?
But hey, we all know Jesus died on the cross for everyone. Except the gays. Jesus openly welcomes everyone to his house (the church). Except the gays. Jesus loves everyone, no matter how terrible a person. Except the gays. <-----insert sarcasm here
And yes, this is coming from a Christian republican who has been known to watch Fox News.
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Post by lucyg on Aug 11, 2014 17:18:04 GMT
I understand not hosting a wedding if it goes against your beliefs. But why does it matter for a funeral? We are all sinners according to Christianity, correct? So why is he not worthy of a funeral but all others are? And yes it is hate, sugar coat it all you want but to turn this down the day before for a family in their darkest time is hate. Period.
Why wouldn't it matter? It's a Christian church and a funeral for a Christian is their earthly send off to meet with the Lord. While we're all sinners, Christians are saved by the grace of our Lord. Sinning is no longer a way of life for a Christian (which doesn't mean they don't sin).
Marriage is an earthly relationship symbolic of that of a Christian with Christ. The 'church' (Christians) are called the 'bride of Christ' in scripture. That's why the future celebration of Christians with Christ is called the 'marriage supper of the Lamb'. A funeral service is a celebration of a Christian who has gone home to meet with the Lord. What is said at a funeral for a Christian is not the same as what is said at a funeral for a non Christian.
The church building is considered a sacred place. If this guy is living with another guy and considered 'married' to him that is a direct violation of God. In order to be a Christian one would have to repent of sin- turn away from it, not engage in it. The guy who died hadn't repented (turned away) from his sinful lifestyle.
It would be a desecration to hold a funeral there for this person. It would be a direct mocking of God and the relationship / institution He created - marriage.
There are scriptures regarding mocking God too.
If the church feels so strongly about this, why didn't they determine that the deceased person wasn't worthy of a Christian send off before promising the church to the family? That's my problem with this mess. I don't care if they don't want to hold funerals for gay people or gay-married people. What I care about is that they canceled the day before the funeral. In what world is that okay? I agree with everything Heartcat said above.
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Aug 11, 2014 17:23:03 GMT
eisforennui, I love your avatar.
If it's not hate, I'd like to know what it is. We play these word games that because the objection is religious in nature, it should be exempt from the normal rules of language. When there is a systematic and methodical targeting of a particular group of people based on their identity, there is a word for that. Just because he's a minister and uses God as his excuse for his conduct does not earn him a get out of the dictionary free card.
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Post by gar on Aug 11, 2014 17:51:31 GMT
And I don't think it's been properly explained why that's the only sin that forbids you a Christian funeral - why just this particular sin and not adulterers etc?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 17:51:41 GMT
eisforennui, I love your avatar. If it's not hate, I'd like to know what it is. We play these word games that because the objection is religious in nature, it's should be exempt from the normal rules of language. When there is a systematic and methodical targeting of a particular group of people based on their identity, there is a word for that. Just because he's a minister and uses God as his excuse for his conduct does not earn him a get out of the dictionary free card. I don't believe for a moment a pastor is motivated by hate. I believe he is motivated by what he believes to be right and wrong. Just because we don't believe as he does doesn't mean he is motivated by hate for gay people.
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,015
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Aug 11, 2014 18:08:21 GMT
It has nothing to do with my beliefs aligning with his or not. It has everything to do with his conduct. I'll repeat that there is a word for targeting a group of people based on their identity and that word is bigotry. Whether he's being a bigot because of what he believes is right and what he believes is wrong or whether he thinks God told him to is irrelevant. To use a well worn cliche, it is what it is.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 19:24:27 GMT
eisforennui, I love your avatar. If it's not hate, I'd like to know what it is. We play these word games that because the objection is religious in nature, it's should be exempt from the normal rules of language. When there is a systematic and methodical targeting of a particular group of people based on their identity, there is a word for that. Just because he's a minister and uses God as his excuse for his conduct does not earn him a get out of the dictionary free card. I don't believe for a moment a pastor is motivated by hate. I believe he is motivated by what he believes to be right and wrong. Just because we don't believe as he does doesn't mean he is motivated by hate for gay people. Are you saying no pastor is motivated by hate? Sorry but being a pastor does not absolve one of being hateful or a bigot. Look at the Westboro "church".
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Post by OntarioScrapper on Aug 11, 2014 19:25:59 GMT
Well I hope this Pastor then posts a list on his church door of all sinners that aren't allowed in. That should dwindle the membership greater. Oh wait, they don't have to tell the TRUTH. It's much easier to hide certain sins so of course it's okay to play the "gay" card.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 20:11:07 GMT
I don't believe for a moment a pastor is motivated by hate. I believe he is motivated by what he believes to be right and wrong. Just because we don't believe as he does doesn't mean he is motivated by hate for gay people. Are you saying no pastor is motivated by hate? Sorry but being a pastor does not absolve one of being hateful or a bigot. Look at the Westboro "church". Isn't the Westboro Baptist Church family living in their own little bubble of hate? Isn't it made up of just one family and extended family? I don't think you can relate any other Baptist church to what the Westboro Church does.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 20:15:34 GMT
Are you saying no pastor is motivated by hate? Sorry but being a pastor does not absolve one of being hateful or a bigot. Look at the Westboro "church". Isn't the Westboro Baptist Church family living in their own little bubble of hate? Isn't it made up of just one family and extended family? I don't think you can relate any other Baptist church to what the Westboro Church does. There are plenty of hateful other churches (all religions) and even pastors. Just because someone became a pastor, church, etc does not make them free from hate.
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Post by scrappincolleen on Aug 11, 2014 21:08:57 GMT
I also consider it wrong and hypocritical really, unless this church and pastor also won't hold funerals for deceased people who have been divorced, or have committed adultery, or any of the other numerous biblical sins that are talked about far more disparagingly than homosexuality. But it's within their right to refuse to hold the service too. I'm glad the funeral home was willing and able to accommodate them. It's a sad story all around . This is a wonderful point! And I'm sure the answer is that the pastor does hold services for those people. So sorry for the family of the deceased having to go through this.
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Post by Susie_Homemaker on Aug 11, 2014 21:38:11 GMT
Agreed! ^^^ This is a verse I was looking into last night. I think it applies here. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 1 John 4:16I don't know what the preacher's motivation was but if it was simply because the deceased was gay then he is saying that that sin is 'worse' than others. Wrong! He should put a sign up "no sinners allowed in this church!".
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Post by Skypea on Aug 11, 2014 22:48:20 GMT
It would be a desecration to hold a funeral there for this person. It would be a direct mocking of God and the relationship / institution He created - marriage. i am so very happy i don't live in your little world full of hatred, Skypea. in the bible, Jesus never defined marriage as between a man and a woman - he just talked about adultery. Jesus sounds like a pretty decent guy, imo. i think that he'd much prefer people in loving relationships than suffering apart because some crotchety dude claimed a god talked to him and told him loving other people of the same sex is wrong.
Matthew 19 (NKJV) 3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."
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Post by Skypea on Aug 11, 2014 22:53:28 GMT
It has nothing to do with my beliefs aligning with his or not. It has everything to do with his conduct. I'll repeat that there is a word for targeting a group of people based on their identity and that word is bigotry. Whether he's being a bigot because of what he believes is right and what he believes is wrong or whether he thinks God told him to is irrelevant. To use a well worn cliche, it is what it is.
Like those who target Christians?
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Post by Skypea on Aug 11, 2014 23:00:44 GMT
And I don't think it's been properly explained why that's the only sin that forbids you a Christian funeral - why just this particular sin and not adulterers etc?
Has anyone answered why some of you are claiming it is the 'only' sin to keep one from a Christian funeral? Have you surveyed all Christian ministers in the country?
Not being a Christian.
What keeps one from having a Catholic funeral?
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Post by gar on Aug 11, 2014 23:12:14 GMT
We are talking about THIS pastor - no deflections - is being gay the only sin for which he cancels funerals?
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Post by Skypea on Aug 11, 2014 23:21:22 GMT
Here's my POV and stance: It is not the job of any Christian or person to stand in condemnation of another human being. So while the church is spouting off about it being a sin, remember the other scriptures where he said that he who is without sin may cast the first stone, and that if you don't love one other, you are a like a noisy gong or clanging symbol to God? Yeah, just ignore those because it's so much better to look down your nose at others instead of loving them where they are. So-called Christians who do this make me ashamed to be one. The Christian church has missed THE memo: LOVE because that's what Jesus did, and that's what Jesus would do.
I guess you missed the scripture about discipline in the church? putting an unrepentant sinner out of the church?
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Post by Skypea on Aug 11, 2014 23:23:36 GMT
We are talking about THIS pastor - no deflections - is being gay the only sin for which he cancels funerals?
call and ask him. Don't forget, it isn't always up to just the minister.
I know ministers who will not perform a marriage if either party isn't a Christian. Or if they are living together.
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Pinky Zebra
Full Member
I love Daryl Dixon. I want to lick his face and have his babies.
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Jun 26, 2014 5:37:40 GMT
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Post by Pinky Zebra on Aug 11, 2014 23:33:57 GMT
This subject and this thread absolutely breaks my heart.
I am a Christian. And I am a sinner. A huge sinner. I would hope that the church I attend would never shun me because I've dropped the f-bomb a few million times. I'm not proud of it. But it happens.
I agree with those of you who have posted about "leveling" sin. Sin is sin. None of it is worse than other sins. Different churches operate by different sets of rules. It doesn't make it right. They'll each have to answer to God someday for whatever sins of commission or omission that they are guilty of. As will I.
I hate the name-calling. I really hate the bigot word. Whether properly used or not. I just hate it.
But what I hate, even more, is that here is one more reason for non-Christians and even some Christians to be handed another reason to hate Christianity.
I really wish they'd chosen to have this man's funeral. It would have been the right thing to do.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 11, 2014 23:39:42 GMT
I think it is absolute garbage. That said, I suspect the pastor of the church was put in a position where he felt he had to do this. I would guess he already knew the deceased was gay and wasn't particularly concerned but the parishioners got wind of it and created an uproar. Churches are supported by and 100% dependent on tithes, offerings, and gifts from parishioners. Without this support, there is no money to pay the pastor or keep and maintain the church. If a bunch of the "supporters" are threatening to leave your church and/or withdraw financial support, it would leave you in a very uncomfortable position. I think caving was the wrong decision because as previous posters have mentioned, this is not showing love, compassion, or caring...things that we are taught Jesus found very important. Maybe you should find out what 'power' a minister has in a church? Not all are the same. Some ministers don't make the 'rules' - they follow what the denomination sets forth. Some have to answer to a church board. The board votes on what can be done or not done. yes, Jesus died for everyone. Everyone gets the OPTION to accept Him and become a member of His body. An adopted child of God the Father. NOT everyone CHOOSES that tho. Many reject it - as many here do. Jesus loves all people and desires that ALL would come to Him - but many do not. The Bible speaks of a remnant - so that doesn't sound like the majority of people to me. He tells us in His word how to become a member of His family. I'm sure that as a Christian you know that.
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Post by hennybutton on Aug 11, 2014 23:48:54 GMT
I went to a funeral today at a church that was not of my denomination and I have a few new thoughts. Funerals are not for the deceased, they are for those left behind. The deceased is beyond caring about his/her send-off and I don't recall much in the way of funeral instruction in the Bible. Because funerals are for the ones left behind, they can be a tool for the church's ministry and outreach. There are many people who only go to churches for weddings and funerals. This is the time to preach compassionately about God's grace and forgiveness. This is not the time to preach hellfire and damnation. (I don't think preaching hellfire and damnation ever works to bring people to Christ anyway.) By cancelling the funeral, this pastor missed an opportunity to share God's love. Instead, the controversy serves to reinforce non-believers' negative opinions of Christianity. When the Bible talks about approaching our brothers and sisters about sinful behavior, it is talking about believer-to-believer communication. I don't think it's ever loving, right, or effective to tell a non-believer that they are going to hell. Even between believers, it's tricky. In Matthew chapter 7, Jesus says:
Jesus was pretty consistent in telling people not to judge others unless they could self-examine and find themselves perfect. He consistently told people to forgive, not condemn. When he healed someone or forgave someone, he would tell them to go and sin no more, but I'm sure that was with the realization that everyone does sin. When he tells his disciples to forgive not seven, but seventy-seven times, that indicates that he knows the cycle of repentance and forgiveness is constant.
What a shame the pastor missed a golden opportunity based on making one sin greater than any other. He should count his blessings that God will forgive him for not loving his neighbor as himself.
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Post by katiekaty on Aug 11, 2014 23:49:47 GMT
That is a church I wouldn't be attending. Not all churches are created the same I guess.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 23:50:56 GMT
I wouldn't have a problem if this church had declined having the funeral because he wasn't a member of the church, but that wasn't the reason. It was because he was gay.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 23:57:17 GMT
Isn't the Westboro Baptist Church family living in their own little bubble of hate? Isn't it made up of just one family and extended family? I don't think you can relate any other Baptist church to what the Westboro Church does. There are plenty of hateful other churches (all religions) and even pastors. Just because someone became a pastor, church, etc does not make them free from hate. I don't believe for a moment a pastor is motivated by hate. I believe he is motivated by what he believes to be right and wrong. Just because we don't believe as he does doesn't mean he is motivated by hate for gay people. That's what I believe.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 23:58:45 GMT
There are plenty of hateful other churches (all religions) and even pastors. Just because someone became a pastor, church, etc does not make them free from hate. I don't believe for a moment a pastor is motivated by hate. I believe he is motivated by what he believes to be right and wrong. Just because we don't believe as he does doesn't mean he is motivated by hate for gay people. That's what I believe. And I believe you are naive regarding pastors. Nothing in the bible days a gay man shouldn't have a funeral. Not one thing.
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