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Post by pierogi on Aug 18, 2014 0:07:28 GMT
We didn't sign anything either when we married. But it was brought up repeatedly during the pre-marital investigative interview, pre-Cana, and that multiple choice test you take with your fiance. Finally during the ceremony, you have to make a verbal promise to the effect that your children will be Catholic. It's pretty serious business. I don't know the mother (obviously.) But if she was baptized and confirmed in the church, she's Catholic. Going to mass sporadically doesn't change that. Even getting divorced doesn't change that. It's probably also a huge part of her identity, and her family's identity, and it could be she wants her children to have that even though she's not the perfect representation of a Catholic woman. (Who is? I'm not, and I won't judge her.)
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Post by woodysbetty on Aug 18, 2014 0:07:34 GMT
I find this discussion very interesting.....because I wonder how the "divorce" happened.......based on the catholic thing.....just a thought......
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,018
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Aug 18, 2014 0:09:05 GMT
Then as the mother, I'd discuss it with the father and if we weren't able to come to an agreement, I'd go to court and let a judge make the decision. This is absolutely a hill I'd die on.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 18, 2014 0:10:17 GMT
Church is a family thing. If the dad is going to church, I believe the child should attend as well. I think the child should attend with mom when he's staying with her and with dad when staying with him. Instead of fighting about doctrinal differences that are insignificant to ultimate salvation of their child, they should focus on the ways both churches agree. It's supposed to be worshiping the same Savior- another extension of the family of God. Explain to the child that just like when he is at mom's house, there are certain house rules and that dad's house might have a few different house rules but ultimately, the point is that at either house, he has family who love him and want the very best for him.
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Post by pierogi on Aug 18, 2014 0:12:00 GMT
Freecharlie, probably through the courts. This should have been addressed earlier in their separation, and I imagine that religious issues/practices would be addressed in the custody documents.
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back to *pea*ality
Pearl Clutcher
Not my circus, not my monkeys ~refugee pea #59
Posts: 3,149
Jun 25, 2014 19:51:11 GMT
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Post by back to *pea*ality on Aug 18, 2014 0:12:09 GMT
My DH is Jewish and my kids are Catholic...that took some work A story you might appreciate.... DH and I are both Catholic. We have close, very dear friends who are Jewish. My friend told me about this wonderful pre-school program at her synagogue that was open to all denominations. Our church had no program and so we sent our son to pre-school at the synagogue. Each year they would have a children's Shabbat service that we attended. We also attended Church too and our son was aware that we all believed in God but a preschooler doesn't understand the difference in our beliefs. Anyway, at Christmas dinner he asked if he could say the blessing before dinner so we said of course and to our surprise and delight he said...Baruch atah, Adonai, Eloheinu, Melech haolam, hamotzi lechem min haaretz. Not to worry, he has made all his sacraments and attended Catholic elementary and high school.
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Post by Linda on Aug 18, 2014 0:14:03 GMT
just an aside regarding divorce and the Catholic Church - it's not considered a sin/forbidden to get divorced/be divorced if you're Catholic - the sin comes in if you remarry without having your (or your new spouse's if applicable) previous marriage(s) annulled. Annulment is NOT automatic and is not equivalent to 'Catholic divorce'.
There are reasons why a marriage might be considered invalid - and thus eligible for annulment. There are also reasons why separation and/or civil divorce may be the best route even for a valid (thus not eligible for annulment) marriage
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Post by monklady123 on Aug 18, 2014 0:15:19 GMT
My DH is Jewish and my kids are Catholic...that took some work A story you might appreciate.... DH and I are both Catholic. We have close, very dear friends who are Jewish. My friend told me about this wonderful pre-school program at her synagogue that was open to all denominations. Our church had no program and so we sent our son to pre-school at the synagogue. Each year they would have a children's Shabbat service that we attended. We also attended Church too and our son was aware that we all believed in God but a preschooler doesn't understand the difference in our beliefs. Anyway, at Christmas dinner he asked if he could say the blessing before dinner so we said of course and to our surprise and delight he said...Baruch atah, Adonai, Eloheinu, Melech haolam, hamotzi lechem min haaretz. Not to worry, he has made all his sacraments and attended Catholic elementary and high school. Lol. I love this story!
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 18, 2014 0:20:19 GMT
Freecharlie, probably through the courts. This should have been addressed earlier in their separation, and I imagine that religious issues/practices would be addressed in the custody documents. Having not been divorced, I didn't know if this was the kind of thing a court gets involved in.
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Post by Linda on Aug 18, 2014 0:22:13 GMT
Church is a family thing. If the dad is going to church, I believe the child should attend as well. I think the child should attend with mom when he's staying with her and with dad when staying with him. Instead of fighting about doctrinal differences that are insignificant to ultimate salvation of their child, they should focus on the ways both churches agree. It's supposed to be worshiping the same Savior- another extension of the family of God. Explain to the child that just like when he is at mom's house, there are certain house rules and that dad's house might have a few different house rules but ultimately, the point is that at either house, he has family who love him and want the very best for him. That works best if you're dealing with churches that are similar in their beliefs and practises. For a Catholic - one might be able to make that argument in regards to an Orthodox church and with a bit more of a stretch - maybe Lutheran or Episcopalian - although none of those meet the Sunday Mass requirements for a Catholic. However it's a different ballgame for a Catholic if the other church is question is radically different - altar calls for Salvation, anti-Catholic preaching etc...[It's not that there's anything wrong with altar calls but that's very different from the Catholic belief and just as someone whose church practises the Sinners prayer and altar calls will probably not be comfortable with Catholic Confession to a priest - a Catholic won't be comfortable there either.] now the OP hasn't said (as far as I can tell) what denomination the father/stepmum attend - just that it's not Catholic. Something that perhaps non-Catholics struggle with is that to a Catholic, it really DOES matter that it's a Catholic Mass/Church and no other service - no matter how nice, worshipful, inclusive etc... - can substitute. I know for many non-Catholic Christians - denomination is less important than the attendance at a service and it's not as much of a big deal to switch churches or even denominations if one church is a better fit for your family. Catholics just don't do that.
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Post by Basket1lady on Aug 18, 2014 0:24:35 GMT
And this is such a sad part of this discussion. The fact that any church thinks it has the right to turn away anyone from the Lord's table blows my mind. It's not a matter of what doctrine you've been "appropriately schooled under". It's a matter of the individual's heart as they come before Christ. Whether you believe it's symbolic of Christ's body and blood or the real deal- what matters most is that you come to the table as a part of the Family of God and keep in remembrance Christ's ultimate sacrifice. That His body was broken and His blood was shed for the atonement of sins and broke down the barrier between humanity and its Creator. The Bible doesn't dictate who can and cannot come to the communion table and neither should any church. You have a certain point here. Ultimately, it comes down to each individual to make his/her choice for communion. That ultimately, that sacrament is between each person and God, not between the person and the church or the person and the pastor/minister/priest. However, we do have guidance here, directly from the bible. There is a passage that always comes to mind for me. It's 1 Corinthians 11:23-29. I have been taught that it's because of this passage that we choose appropriate communion to attend. That one pastor's consecration of the Body and Blood is not the same from faith to faith. And that is why, as Catholics, we don't celebrate Holy Communion with most other faiths. Because one faith considers it bread and grape juice, another considers it to represent the Body and Blood, another considers it the Body and Blood UNDER the bread and the wine. 23 For the tradition I received from the Lord and also handed on to you is that on the night he was betrayed, the Lord Jesus took some bread, 24 and after he had given thanks, he broke it, and he said, 'This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.' 25 And in the same way, with the cup after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Whenever you drink it, do this as a memorial of me.' 26 Whenever you eat this bread, then, and drink this cup, you are proclaiming the Lord's death until he comes. 27 Therefore anyone who eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily is answerable for the body and blood of the Lord.
28 Everyone is to examine himself and only then eat of the bread or drink from the cup;29 because a person who eats and drinks without recognising the body is eating and drinking his own condemnation. The theology here is getting pretty deep. And I'm getting in over my head as a lay person! If this is something that gets you thinking, that is wonderful. I believe that all that we learn about our faith only draws us closer to God. If you are still questioning, wondering, or simply curious, I would encourage you to go to your pastor/minister/priest and to have a thoughtful discussion on how your faith views the Body and Blood of Christ, especially in regards to other faiths' views.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 18, 2014 0:30:20 GMT
I do understand that Catholics believe "no other service will do." I have Catholic family members praying for my soul in spite of the fact my family and I attend church regularly and are actively involved where we attend. It's simply something I disagree with. It really saddens me that one denomination can't understand we are truly all a part of the same Family of God. I have no problem finding value in visiting my family's Catholic masses with them. I enjoy the hymns (many are sung in my own worship services too) and can always benefit from hearing from God through His Word.
And forgive me if I've misunderstood, but it sounded from the OP that the mom isn't regularly attending her Catholic masses anyway. So apparently it's not so much important for her son to be IN church- more that her son stay OUT of other denomination's services.
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Post by pierogi on Aug 18, 2014 0:31:17 GMT
Freecharlie, probably through the courts. This should have been addressed earlier in their separation, and I imagine that religious issues/practices would be addressed in the custody documents. Having not been divorced, I didn't know if this was the kind of thing a court gets involved in. I've never been divorced either, but having witnessed several contentious divorces close-up, it seems there are very few issues that family courts can't mediate. Religion can affect medical decisions, dietary decisions, who pays for church related stuff, it's never ending.
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Post by Basket1lady on Aug 18, 2014 0:31:27 GMT
My DH is Jewish and my kids are Catholic...that took some work A story you might appreciate.... DH and I are both Catholic. We have close, very dear friends who are Jewish. My friend told me about this wonderful pre-school program at her synagogue that was open to all denominations. Our church had no program and so we sent our son to pre-school at the synagogue. Each year they would have a children's Shabbat service that we attended. We also attended Church too and our son was aware that we all believed in God but a preschooler doesn't understand the difference in our beliefs. Anyway, at Christmas dinner he asked if he could say the blessing before dinner so we said of course and to our surprise and delight he said...Baruch atah, Adonai, Eloheinu, Melech haolam, hamotzi lechem min haaretz. Not to worry, he has made all his sacraments and attended Catholic elementary and high school. I do like this story! I truly do believe that it's important to learn about other faiths. The point is that you chose it with your DH and you know what the program entails. And it's pre-school. Really, at that level, it's mostly "God loves you" across all denominations.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 18, 2014 0:35:41 GMT
Michelle, our pastor reads that same scripture as we take communion. Our wafers and juice aren't just wafers and juice once we hold those elements with intention to take Communion. It doesn't matter to me if the cracker is actually the body or just symbolic of Christ's body- what matters is that I know what happened to His body when he was crucified and that I accept that sacrifice as one made for me. The priest or pastor reciting the scripture is not who makes it worthy of Communion. It's the One whose body was broken and blood shed that makes those elements worthy.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 18, 2014 0:36:45 GMT
It's really hard to speak in general terms, since I don't know the mother, father, or step parent of this child in question. We only have a colleague asking about it. We don't have either the mother's or the father's side of why this decision has been made or why things are changing now. Only supposition. The bulk of my knowledge comes from being a catechist for two years (teacher of those in confirmation class.) I am in no way an expert on the Catholic faith. Catholics say that about those who aren't Catholic too. That's what I was taught growing up. I was reading on a Catholic forum a few hrs ago and they aren't shy at all about telling a non Catholic they are going to hell, don't know the truth, and many other things. If they don't go to hell, it's still because of Catholics...like they're Catholic by desire (and don't know it). But this is the perfect example of why you don't want to attend a church that isn't of your faith. Because you don't know what is being taught. A Catholic forum answered by lay people (like this one!) is not the best place to get your doctrinal information. But the Roman Catholic church says the way to salvation is in your true faith and service of God through Jesus. You don't have to be Catholic to believe that. Exactly. Being baptized Catholic and being Catholic for life is Catholic doctrine. This thread is about why a Catholic parent wouldn't want a Catholic child to regularly attend a non-Catholic church. And that is one very valid reason. You just said in the above quote that "Catholics say that about those who aren't Catholic too. That's what I was taught growing up." Then you say that you have never heard a christian church speak against another denomination. But you were taught that that is what Catholics say about other faiths. It's not Catholic church doctrine, it's what the christian churches you attended say about what Catholic churches say. ETA: And Catholics are christians.
highlighted blue above regarding C forum:
you don't know what forum it is or who posts on it (or who manages or moderates it). While many are just lay people, many are not. It is an authorized forum. Some posting are top Catholic apologists. They are also able to cut and paste from the CCC.
you might want to compare what I DID say (bold green type above) and what you posted that I said (bold red type above).
I limited what I've heard said in Christian churches back to the yr I started going to one. I quit going to a CC several yrs prior to that.
What I was taught by Catholics growing up is what was taught (by nuns and priests) in the classroom.
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Post by Linda on Aug 18, 2014 0:40:58 GMT
I do understand that Catholics believe "no other service will do." I have Catholic family members praying for my soul in spite of the fact my family and I attend church regularly and are actively involved where we attend. It's simply something I disagree with. It really saddens me that one denomination can't understand we are truly all a part of the same Family of God. I have no problem finding value in visiting my family's Catholic masses with them. I enjoy the hymns (many are sung in my own worship services too) and can always benefit from hearing from God through His Word. And forgive me if I've misunderstood, but it sounded from the OP that the mom isn't regularly attending her Catholic masses anyway. So apparently it's not so much important for her son to be IN church- more that her son stay OUT of other denomination's services. I'm sorry that your Catholic family aren't accepting of your Faith Journey. That's not the attitude I was taught nor is it how I approach the non-Catholics in my family (my kids and I are pretty much it - my mum and sister are non-practising, DH and his family aren't Catholic and neither was my dad/his family). As a Catholic, I'm happy to attend services from other denominations although I won't return if they are blatantly anti-Catholic. However these would be an additional service not instead of Mass. I'm happy to bring my older two children with me - they are both Confirmed and well-educated in our beliefs and I believe in exposing them to other belief systems and discussing how they are similar to and different from our own. Since DH isn't Catholic, we often discuss religion at the dinner table so my older two have a good grasp of differences. The little one is still early on in her Catholic education - she's baptised but hasn't yet made First Holy Communion. We do talk about how different people believe differently but I want her to have the opportunity to be well-grounded in her own Faith so we don't generally bring her to other services or activities like VBS at other churches yet.
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Post by Basket1lady on Aug 18, 2014 0:41:15 GMT
My biggest objection here is not so much that the child is attending another church regularly. And yes, the mother should be finding a way to bring the child to mass. I would attend another service out of curiosity or observance of God, but in all honesty, I would have a hard time with the charismatic faiths, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormon's, or other faiths off the main stream. I feel that they are too far from Catholicism to interchange them comfortably. That doesn't mean that I don't respect those faiths and those who believe in those faiths. It means that I don't see them as meshing with Catholicism and I would not attend their services regularly, nor would I allow my child to attend them regularly. As for the salvation of those church members, I truly don't believe that is my right to judge. I'm pretty sure God isn't up there planning to save only the Catholics and none of the Mormons. But I am pretty sure that God can see what is in each of our hearts and will judge us accordingly.
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Post by Linda on Aug 18, 2014 0:50:59 GMT
As for the salvation of those church members, I truly don't believe that is my right to judge. I'm pretty sure God isn't up there planning to save only the Catholics and none of the Mormons. But I am pretty sure that God can see what is in each of our hearts and will judge us accordingly. very well said - I agree completely. I believe that being Catholic is the best/right way for ME to achieve salvation and for ME to be a good person, worthy of being a child of God. Obviously those who have chosen other faith journeys feel that their path is the best/right way for them. In the end, we all do the best we can do and God will judge us with love and mercy.
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Post by bc2ca on Aug 18, 2014 1:08:18 GMT
I'm not Catholic or divorced, but can't resist giving my opinion.
If I was Catholic (even just nominally) and divorced, I would be furious if a stepmother wanted to take my children to a nonCatholic church. If the teachings of all Christian churches were the same, we would not have seventy billion different Christian churches.
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 18, 2014 1:12:17 GMT
So since there are so many Masses during the week and on weekends, wouldn't a good compromise for the parents would be that the boy does what the one family does when with them and what the other family does when with them? That way when the boy returns Sunday evening or whatnot, the mom could take him to Mass.
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Post by 5peanutsnana on Aug 18, 2014 1:22:32 GMT
I do understand that Catholics believe "no other service will do." I have Catholic family members praying for my soul in spite of the fact my family and I attend church regularly and are actively involved where we attend. It's simply something I disagree with. It really saddens me that one denomination can't understand we are truly all a part of the same Family of God. I have no problem finding value in visiting my family's Catholic masses with them. I enjoy the hymns (many are sung in my own worship services too) and can always benefit from hearing from God through His Word. And forgive me if I've misunderstood, but it sounded from the OP that the mom isn't regularly attending her Catholic masses anyway. So apparently it's not so much important for her son to be IN church- more that her son stay OUT of other denomination's services. I am truly sorry that your Catholic family members are not accepting of the Church you attend. I can assure you that the Catholic Church as a whole does not agree with your family members. The Catholic Churches I attend actually pray for (by name) other denomination of churches in our city. Not that they convert to Catholicism but that their pastors receive the grace to minister to their congregation. It's a beautiful thing.
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Post by pierogi on Aug 18, 2014 1:29:31 GMT
My biggest objection here is not so much that the child is attending another church regularly. And yes, the mother should be finding a way to bring the child to mass. I would attend another service out of curiosity or observance of God, but in all honesty, I would have a hard time with the charismatic faiths, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormon's, or other faiths off the main stream. I feel that they are too far from Catholicism to interchange them comfortably. That doesn't mean that I don't respect those faiths and those who believe in those faiths. It means that I don't see them as meshing with Catholicism and I would not attend their services regularly, nor would I allow my child to attend them regularly. As for the salvation of those church members, I truly don't believe that is my right to judge. I'm pretty sure God isn't up there planning to save only the Catholics and none of the Mormons. But I am pretty sure that God can see what is in each of our hearts and will judge us accordingly. Beautifully said.
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Deleted
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Oct 10, 2024 6:29:27 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 1:33:32 GMT
wouldn't a good compromise for the parents would be that the boy does what the one family does when with them and what the other family does when with them? Absent extraordinary circumstances, that's exactly what a court in my state will say. There's no hill to die on here. Either adult-up and work out a compromise everyone can live with ------ or lawyer up and spend a small fortune to get (or keep unchanged) the custody order that says parent in possession directs religious instruction.
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Post by jenjie on Aug 18, 2014 1:42:31 GMT
Not necessarily. Our next door neighbors are Catholic. They don't regularly attend services. But it was very important for them that their kids learn the Catholic faith without being confused by input from outside the faith, so to speak.
Their DD is my DD's best friend. DD invited her to something at our nondenominational church. IIRC the parents let her come the one time. But mom very kindly and graciously requested that we not invite her to anything else while she was going to CCD.
Off topic:
I believe once she was confirmed, she was allowed to come once in awhile. Maybe two years ago we had a pool party for the kids at our house. I was the one teaching the Bible lesson. Mom said she could come, but I sat down with her ahead of time and let her know exactly what I would be teaching. I didn't want her to feel she would be blindsided by something objectionable. At this point she was fine with it, she felt DD was old enough.
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Deleted
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Oct 10, 2024 6:29:27 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 1:55:14 GMT
I stopped attending church on a regular basis 7 years ago. That does not mean my faith is non existent. What I found after my divorce is church, as an institution, is heavily weighted toward families. Going to church alone only reminds me of what I don't have that I am "supposed" to have.. a husband and children. The bio mother in this case is divorced (no husband) and the visitation ended up with dad having custody ever week end (per the op) so she also has no child going with her. She may not feel like going alone and facing her deficits each week. Does not mean her beliefs are meaningless or she doesn't care. We don't know.
No one has addressed how the new stepmother handled this during the dating phase of their relationship. Did she not expect her boyfriend/fiance to go with her to church? But surely if her faith, and HER attendance at HER church was so important to her she realized there was going to be issues and those should have been considered well before the wedding. I am constantly amazed at the women who marry men with children and assume they will have any rights to make any decisions about a child that is not theirs.
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Post by Jennifer C on Aug 18, 2014 2:04:16 GMT
Really? How long ago was that? I was married 27 years ago and didn't have to sign anything agreeing to raising the children Catholic. I thought they quit doing that ages ago.....but then again, there are different sects within the Church so maybe some still do it. We were asked if we planned to raise the children in the Church, but we sure didn't have to put pen to paper over it. I was married 30 years ago, didn't sign anything to agree to raise our children Catholic, but we are both Catholic so I guess it is implied. When I got married, to receive the sacrament of marriage, we had to have the sacraments of baptism, communion and confirmation. I believe the same holds true today. If a non-Catholic marries a Catholic I think they can be granted permission by a Bishop and I would guess the approval being granted is contingent on raising the children as Catholics. My dh and I have been married for 13 yrs. Back then I thought it was funny that we signed but my Mom said it was because dh was Baptist and did not expect to convert. I don't know. I would let them go if their father was with them. However, I would not want them to take communion in another church. Jennifer
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Post by Skypea on Aug 18, 2014 2:34:16 GMT
However it's a different ballgame for a Catholic if the other church is question is radically different - altar calls for Salvation, anti-Catholic preaching etc...[ It's not that there's anything wrong with altar calls but that's very different from the Catholic belief and just as someone whose church practises the Sinners prayer and altar calls will probably not be comfortable with Catholic Confession to a priest - a Catholic won't be comfortable there either.] now the OP hasn't said (as far as I can tell) what denomination the father/stepmum attend - just that it's not Catholic. Something that perhaps non-Catholics struggle with is that to a Catholic, it really DOES matter that it's a Catholic Mass/Church and no other service - no matter how nice, worshipful, inclusive etc... - can substitute. I know for many non-Catholic Christians - denomination is less important than the attendance at a service and it's not as much of a big deal to switch churches or even denominations if one church is a better fit for your family. Catholics just don't do that. alter calls - Catholic might check into that. Fr Cedric (I think that's his name) on ETWN says he gives alter calls.
importance of church/denom to attend - It might not be that important to many BUT to many IT IS. Such as, I wouldn't go to a Catholic church or a Lutheran church or many others . Can't think of any right off that I would go to - maybe Baptist.
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Post by Linda on Aug 18, 2014 2:45:52 GMT
Skypea - I'm not familiar with Fr Cedric as I don't watch EWTN but I suspect he means it differently than I've seen it used in Baptist and non-denom churches but I don't know for sure. I've certainly never seen/heard an altar call of any sort in a Catholic Church here in the States or abroad but I've only attended a handful of different parishes (maybe 30 or so total) so that's hardly statistically important. as for the importance of church/denom - I was careful to state many not all. I know that every Christian church has its own beliefs and one can't (shouldn't) generalise across all (or even all non-Catholic Christian churches).
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 18, 2014 2:57:29 GMT
I stopped attending church on a regular basis 7 years ago. That does not mean my faith is non existent. What I found after my divorce is church, as an institution, is heavily weighted toward families. Going to church alone only reminds me of what I don't have that I am "supposed" to have.. a husband and children. The bio mother in this case is divorced (no husband) and the visitation ended up with dad having custody ever week end (per the op) so she also has no child going with her. She may not feel like going alone and facing her deficits each week. Does not mean her beliefs are meaningless or she doesn't care. We don't know. No one has addressed how the new stepmother handled this during the dating phase of their relationship. Did she not expect her boyfriend/fiance to go with her to church? But surely if her faith, and HER attendance at HER church was so important to her she realized there was going to be issues and those should have been considered well before the wedding. I am constantly amazed at the women who marry men with children and assume they will have any rights to make any decisions about a child that is not theirs. volt, you are right about the family orientation of many churches. I had never seen that point of view. I do think that it unrealistic to think that a woman has no say in what goes on under her roof just because someone else gave birth to a child.
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