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Post by Darcy Collins on May 5, 2017 16:43:50 GMT
lucillebluth , epeanymous , & amom23 : It appears the rules must have changed or was limited to the specific airport or airline (which has since merged). Before we first flew with our child over a decade ago, we were told children needed a birth certificate, state-issued ID, or passport, whether a lap rider or occupying an individual seat. He has always produced either his passport or state-issued ID, meaning the airlines/airports have a record of at least my minor! It might have been some specific small airline rule. But I agree with previous posters, it definitely is not a requirement and hasn't been for 15 years. My kids have flown a ton- United, American, Southwest and Frontier are the ones we've flown most often - never any ID Or birth certificate required.
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PaperAngel
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Posts: 7,796
Jun 27, 2014 23:04:06 GMT
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Post by PaperAngel on May 5, 2017 16:47:42 GMT
lucillebluth , epeanymous , & amom23 : It appears the rules must have changed or was limited to the specific airport or airline (which has since merged). Before we first flew with our child over a decade ago, we were told children needed a birth certificate, state-issued ID, or passport, whether a lap rider or occupying an individual seat. He has always produced either his passport or state-issued ID, meaning the airlines/airports have a record of at least my minor! It might have been some specific small airline rule. But I agree with previous posters, it definitely is not a requirement and hasn't been for 15 years. My kids have flown a ton- United, American, Southwest and Frontier are the ones we've flown most often - never any ID Or birth certificate required. We flew USAirways out of Charlotte, NC. Either the rule applied narrowly to first class seating/specific flight/to discourage redeeming frequent flyer miles/airport security, or I was given incorrect information that we've acted on all these years. Regardless, the airlines/airport has proof of at least one minor passenger!
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used2scrap
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,077
Jan 29, 2016 3:02:55 GMT
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Post by used2scrap on May 5, 2017 16:48:19 GMT
I don't understand a birth certificate requirement, without a photo on it that piece of paper could belong to any child/birthdate.
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Post by epeanymous on May 5, 2017 16:48:47 GMT
lucillebluth , epeanymous , & amom23 : It appears the rules must have changed or was limited to the specific airport, airline (which has since merged), or just to first class seating. Before we first flew with our child over a decade ago, we were told children needed a birth certificate, state-issued ID, or passport, whether a lap rider or occupying an individual seat. We've always booked him his own seat in first class, for which he's produced either his passport or state-issued ID. As I said, I have been flying with kids for 14+ years, variety of airlines, variety of airports, variety of ways (lap babies, babies with seats, older kids including my now-14.5-year-old who is taller than I am, and, while almost always coach, occasionally business/first class with upgrades) and have never, ever heard of a rule that kids need ID. And I remember checking when I took that 14.5-year-old on her first flight at three months. I think the most likely thing is that someone gave you bad information.
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PaperAngel
Prolific Pea
Posts: 7,796
Jun 27, 2014 23:04:06 GMT
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Post by PaperAngel on May 5, 2017 16:54:28 GMT
lucillebluth , epeanymous , & amom23 : It appears the rules must have changed or was limited to the specific airport, airline (which has since merged), or just to first class seating. Before we first flew with our child over a decade ago, we were told children needed a birth certificate, state-issued ID, or passport, whether a lap rider or occupying an individual seat. We've always booked him his own seat in first class, for which he's produced either his passport or state-issued ID. As I said, I have been flying with kids for 14+ years, variety of airlines, variety of airports, variety of ways (lap babies, babies with seats, older kids including my now-14.5-year-old who is taller than I am, and, while almost always coach, occasionally business/first class with upgrades) and have never, ever heard of a rule that kids need ID. And I remember checking when I took that 14.5-year-old on her first flight at three months. I think the most likely thing is that someone gave you bad information. It appears it was incorrect information, given yours & others' experience, or maybe an odd rule narrowly applied. I wonder if the family discussed purchased the ticket for their adult son on an earlier flight because they were given incorrect information/assured the ticket could be used by one of their minor children.
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Post by mrssmith on May 5, 2017 17:00:17 GMT
We were asked once for DDs ID when she was about 15 months old. We had her passport. This was about 7 years ago. Can't remember which airline. Haven't been asked since. However, now at security they have asked my kids to identify themselves, tell their age, where they are going, who the woman with them is... We don't have the same last name. Of course, my kids get shy and squirrely and I don't want to prompt them so as not to create suspicion!
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Post by mrssmith on May 5, 2017 17:06:13 GMT
This article states the 3rd ticket was in the teen son's name:
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pudgygroundhog
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Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 5, 2017 17:11:37 GMT
My head is spinning!
The news reports seem incomplete. To me the sticking points are:
1. the 18 year old son flew on a different flight. Did they buy a completely new ticket? Or change his ticket? 2. If the bought a completely new ticket and still "owned" a seat on their flight home - what was the name on that ticket? I thought tickets were non-transferable? (and honestly for good reason)
I think the crux of the issue is what we think of the airline rules versus having to comply with the rules once we've bought a ticket. It is frustrating because I find some of the rules ridiculous - but there is not much we can do if we choose to fly (and there are times that alternate modes of transport just aren't feasible so telling people to simply not fly is not a solution in my mind).
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bethany102399
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Oct 11, 2014 3:17:29 GMT
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Post by bethany102399 on May 5, 2017 17:17:38 GMT
However, now at security they have asked my kids to identify themselves, tell their age, where they are going, who the woman with them is... We don't have the same last name. Of course, my kids get shy and squirrely and I don't want to prompt them so as not to create suspicion! Mine do that too, and went through a stage where they thought it would be funny to say, no she's not my mom. All of this was post 9/11 and I'm standing next to them going don't mess with the gate agent! sigh. I flew a couple of times with DS as a lap child and I honestly can't remember if I needed to show his birth certificate or not. I had it with me just in case. Plus I would have flown to Atlanta in September with him, for a craft show. I almost always fly back on or around the 11th and the airports are usually on VERY high alert regardless just due to the timing. I think the crux of the issue is what we think of the airline rules versus having to comply with the rules once we've bought a ticket. It is frustrating because I find some of the rules ridiculous - but there is not much we can do if we choose to fly (and there are times that alternate modes of transport just aren't feasible so telling people to simply not fly is not a solution in my mind). exactly.
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pudgygroundhog
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Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 5, 2017 17:18:45 GMT
This article states the 3rd ticket was in the teen son's name: 1. Did they buy an extra ticket for the son to fly home on an earlier flight? It seems the logical choice would've been to buy the two year old an extra seat on the flight home, but I'm guessing there were no extra seats available on their flight to purchase and they thought they could get around it this way 2. If the ticket was in the older son's name and he didn't show up, then the seat is released, right? Seats are not transferable (even though I get the frustration that the family paid for the seat and couldn't use it). 3. It seems there were communication issues - they were allowed to board, etc. Seems like this wasn't handled well on either side and it escalated. 4. Didn't they essentially lie and take their 2 year old as a lap child anyway?
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bethany102399
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Oct 11, 2014 3:17:29 GMT
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Post by bethany102399 on May 5, 2017 17:21:16 GMT
2. If the ticket was in the older son's name and he didn't show up, then the seat is released, right? Seats are not transferable (even though I get the frustration that the family paid for the seat and couldn't use it). Yes, that's my understanding. 4. Didn't they essentially lie and take their 2 year old as a lap child anyway? That is my understanding as well, and honestly ticks me off that Delta caved and apologized for this family trying to play the system.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 5, 2017 17:24:05 GMT
My head is spinning! The news reports seem incomplete. To me the sticking points are: 1. the 18 year old son flew on a different flight. Did they buy a completely new ticket? Or change his ticket? 2. If the bought a completely new ticket and still "owned" a seat on their flight home - what was the name on that ticket? I thought tickets were non-transferable? (and honestly for good reason) I think the crux of the issue is what we think of the airline rules versus having to comply with the rules once we've bought a ticket. It is frustrating because I find some of the rules ridiculous - but there is not much we can do if we choose to fly (and there are times that alternate modes of transport just aren't feasible so telling people to simply not fly is not a solution in my mind). The name on the ticket was definitely still that of the 18 year old who was not on the flight. You can actually here the airline employee state that during the video exchange.
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,648
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 5, 2017 17:27:21 GMT
My head is spinning! The news reports seem incomplete. To me the sticking points are: 1. the 18 year old son flew on a different flight. Did they buy a completely new ticket? Or change his ticket? 2. If the bought a completely new ticket and still "owned" a seat on their flight home - what was the name on that ticket? I thought tickets were non-transferable? (and honestly for good reason) I think the crux of the issue is what we think of the airline rules versus having to comply with the rules once we've bought a ticket. It is frustrating because I find some of the rules ridiculous - but there is not much we can do if we choose to fly (and there are times that alternate modes of transport just aren't feasible so telling people to simply not fly is not a solution in my mind). The name on the ticket was definitely still that of the 18 year old who was not on the flight. You can actually here the airline employee state that during the video exchange. This seems pretty clear then, right? Seats are non-transferable.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on May 5, 2017 17:32:08 GMT
Given the adult child had two tickets issued in his name, rather than one transferred to the earlier flight, I suspect the seat on this flight had already been flagged by the airline. Either this incident was a misunderstanding & the family didn't read the fine print OR they're overly entitled & thought the rules didn't apply or could be bended for them. They never have proof/ID for passengers under 18 on domestic flights, even when they have their own seats. False. Our child has always flown first class & with a passport or state-issued ID; otherwise a birth certificate is required. Are you in the US? because it is not required. You may have provided it but it is not a requirement to board a US domestic flight, even if the minor is flying by his/herself.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on May 5, 2017 17:32:55 GMT
It might have been some specific small airline rule. But I agree with previous posters, it definitely is not a requirement and hasn't been for 15 years. My kids have flown a ton- United, American, Southwest and Frontier are the ones we've flown most often - never any ID Or birth certificate required. We flew USAirways out of Charlotte, NC. Either the rule applied narrowly to first class seating/specific flight/to discourage redeeming frequent flyer miles/airport security, or I was given incorrect information that we've acted on all these years. Regardless, the airlines/airport has proof of at least one minor passenger! My daughter has flown US Airways out of Charlotte many times with no id.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 5, 2017 17:33:51 GMT
The name on the ticket was definitely still that of the 18 year old who was not on the flight. You can actually here the airline employee state that during the video exchange. This seems pretty clear then, right? Seats are non-transferable. It is to me. I don't think even full fare, fully refundable tickets are transferable - at least on the airlines I typically fly.
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used2scrap
Drama Llama
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Jan 29, 2016 3:02:55 GMT
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Post by used2scrap on May 5, 2017 17:35:32 GMT
2. If the ticket was in the older son's name and he didn't show up, then the seat is released, right? Seats are not transferable (even though I get the frustration that the family paid for the seat and couldn't use it). Yes, that's my understanding. 4. Didn't they essentially lie and take their 2 year old as a lap child anyway? That is my understanding as well, and honestly ticks me off that Delta caved and apologized for this family trying to play the system. The airline is in a pretty bad spot PR wise though, insisting on removing a child from a car seat in accordance with their own preferred policy regarding young children flying. And let's face it, most people won't read past the headline or the salacious sound bite to understand the whole story. I don't know that it is totally unreasonable for the family to think that if they bought a seperate ticket the day before that they still also "own" the ticket for the seat that day. Given that Delta says the flight wasn't overbooked, I can't figure out why they needed to kick the car seat/child out of the seat. I've seen people be allowed to put a car seat in an unsold seat for a lap baby on multiple occasions, and I've seen people hoping to do this have to gate check their car seat when the flight is full. It just seems like some cooler heads could have prevailed in this situation. For what it's worth, I've flown several times alone with three kids, and 2 in car seats. It's not easy at all, but I've always bought seperate tickets for them.
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amom23
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Jun 27, 2014 12:39:18 GMT
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Post by amom23 on May 5, 2017 17:36:38 GMT
Ok so how in the world did this family get on board with 2 children and a car seat? They would have had to have had a 3rd boarding pass right? Delta wouldn't be apologizing and trying to make it right while the media is playing this video clip over and over again if they didn't do something wrong. Maybe the family is to share in the blame, but seriously Delta let them board the plane and strap in the carseat before confronting the family.....really???
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on May 5, 2017 17:37:17 GMT
The name on the ticket was definitely still that of the 18 year old who was not on the flight. You can actually here the airline employee state that during the video exchange. This seems pretty clear then, right? Seats are non-transferable. Seats are always non-transferable. I understand the assumption, you paid for the seat, you should be able to put your kid in the seat. But not according to the rules you agree too. Of course who reads those rules and commits them to memory. There are WAY too many rules for that. Every single fare on a particular flight has different rules of carriage. Though I think the way Delta handled it sucked... legally they were in the right. The way airline travel has changed.. I think we are going to see a lot more people pushing back.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on May 5, 2017 17:40:19 GMT
Ok so how in the world did this family get on board with 2 children and a car seat? They would have had to have had a 3rd boarding pass right? Delta wouldn't be apologizing and trying to make it right while the media is playing this video clip over and over again if they didn't do something wrong. Maybe the family is to share in the blame, but seriously Delta let them board the plane and strap in the carseat before confronting the family.....really??? All passengers on a plane have to have a ticket.. even lap children. So they had a ticket... but they didn't monitor that they got on with the car seat. Delta are apologizing for the way they were threatened with jail. Delta was right. If you have ever been on a plane where the flight attendants keep counting and recounting.. it is almost always because a lap child is getting counted as a full passenger.
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
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Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 5, 2017 17:45:32 GMT
This seems pretty clear then, right? Seats are non-transferable. Seats are always non-transferable. I understand the assumption, you paid for the seat, you should be able to put your kid in the seat. But not according to the rules you agree too. Of course who reads those rules and commits them to memory. There are WAY too many rules for that. Every single fare on a particular flight has different rules of carriage. Though I think the way Delta handled it sucked... legally they were in the right. The way airline travel has changed.. I think we are going to see a lot more people pushing back. I agree that the handling of it sucked - and really it should've been worked out before boarding anyway. Miscommunication and bad handling all around. I also don't think though that it's a little known rule in the fine print that seats aren't transferable (although if they talked to somebody at the airline and the airline wasn't clear - that is problematic). That's a pretty standard rule. I suspect the family was trying to get around the rules (and the fact that they had a two year old as a lap child was lying to begin with) and capitalized on the fact that these stories hit headlines a lot these days.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 5, 2017 17:55:05 GMT
Ok so how in the world did this family get on board with 2 children and a car seat? They would have had to have had a 3rd boarding pass right? Delta wouldn't be apologizing and trying to make it right while the media is playing this video clip over and over again if they didn't do something wrong. Maybe the family is to share in the blame, but seriously Delta let them board the plane and strap in the carseat before confronting the family.....really??? Why would they need a 3rd boarding pass to get on the plane? People gate check their carseats all the time - some people think they get less beat up that way - so the employee wouldn't bat an eye at them carrying a carseat down the jetway. How would the flight attendant know that they didn't have a boarding pass for the seat? The flight attendant doesn't check everyone's boarding pass again. I'd like to see the footage when they first asked them family to remove the seat. The video doesn't start until after the police are already on the plane. I'll give the family the benefit of the doubt that they didn't realize that they couldn't transfer the ticket. When they asked for the lap baby's boarding pass - which I'm sure happened when they were preparing or had released the seat for the no-show and realized that their numbers didn't match, I imagine the conversation was somewhat like the beginning of the tape where the father just kept insisting he owned the seat because he paid for it and it didn't matter that the ticketed passenger wasn't onboard. ETA - the one part Delta did absolutely wrong was the whole BS about the FAA requiring lap babies to be held - that's just completely wrong.
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tracylynn
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Jun 26, 2014 22:49:09 GMT
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Post by tracylynn on May 5, 2017 17:58:23 GMT
If they really cared about safety in the first place they would have bought the seat for the 2 year old to begin with. And did you miss the part where they carried the child on their lap on the way to Hawaii? Dad just wanted to be able to sleep on the red eye home and this was his way around having to hold a child. They had TWO kids - YOU must have missed that part. A 2 year old with her own seat and a 1 year old that they were using for the other seat they paid for. No, you missed it. They didn't buy a seat for their 2 year old OR the 1 year old. The were travelling as LAP passengers despite the apparent rules of 2 years not allowed to happen. They bought 3 seats for that flight, one for the 18 yr old, and one for each parent. They bought a 4th ticket for the 18 yr old to go on a different flight home thinking they could keep his seat on their flight to use for the 2 year old.
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used2scrap
Drama Llama
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Jan 29, 2016 3:02:55 GMT
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Post by used2scrap on May 5, 2017 18:12:04 GMT
So if the family didn't "own" the seat, how does someone larger buy 2 seats under the same name and occupy them both?
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amom23
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,401
Jun 27, 2014 12:39:18 GMT
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Post by amom23 on May 5, 2017 18:12:18 GMT
Ok so how in the world did this family get on board with 2 children and a car seat? They would have had to have had a 3rd boarding pass right? Delta wouldn't be apologizing and trying to make it right while the media is playing this video clip over and over again if they didn't do something wrong. Maybe the family is to share in the blame, but seriously Delta let them board the plane and strap in the carseat before confronting the family.....really??? Why would they need a 3rd boarding pass to get on the plane? People gate check their carseats all the time - some people think they get less beat up that way - so the employee wouldn't bat an eye at them carrying a carseat down the jetway. How would the flight attendant know that they didn't have a boarding pass for the seat? The flight attendant doesn't check everyone's boarding pass again. I'd like to see the footage when they first asked them family to remove the seat. The video doesn't start until after the police are already on the plane. I'll give the family the benefit of the doubt that they didn't realize that they couldn't transfer the ticket. When they asked for the lap baby's boarding pass - which I'm sure happened when they were preparing or had released the seat for the no-show and realized that their numbers didn't match, I imagine the conversation was somewhat like the beginning of the tape where the father just kept insisting he owned the seat because he paid for it and it didn't matter that the ticketed passenger wasn't onboard. ETA - the one part Delta did absolutely wrong was the whole BS about the FAA requiring lap babies to be held - that's just completely wrong. If they were gate checking the carseat the Delta representative would have given them a tag/sticker. Apparently that didn't happen.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 5, 2017 18:18:46 GMT
Why would they need a 3rd boarding pass to get on the plane? People gate check their carseats all the time - some people think they get less beat up that way - so the employee wouldn't bat an eye at them carrying a carseat down the jetway. How would the flight attendant know that they didn't have a boarding pass for the seat? The flight attendant doesn't check everyone's boarding pass again. I'd like to see the footage when they first asked them family to remove the seat. The video doesn't start until after the police are already on the plane. I'll give the family the benefit of the doubt that they didn't realize that they couldn't transfer the ticket. When they asked for the lap baby's boarding pass - which I'm sure happened when they were preparing or had released the seat for the no-show and realized that their numbers didn't match, I imagine the conversation was somewhat like the beginning of the tape where the father just kept insisting he owned the seat because he paid for it and it didn't matter that the ticketed passenger wasn't onboard. ETA - the one part Delta did absolutely wrong was the whole BS about the FAA requiring lap babies to be held - that's just completely wrong. If they were gate checking the carseat the Delta representative would have given them a tag/sticker. Apparently that didn't happen. One thing we should acknowledge is that the reporting on this is sketchy at best. The agent could have absolutely given him a gate check tag and he ignored it - or he could have said he was going to try for an open seat and would check it with the flight attendant if not available. Or the employee could have screwed up and not noticed that he had a carseat that didn't have a gate check tag. This doesn't translate into him now being able to put the carseat into a seat for passenger who does not hold a boarding pass for that seat.
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bethany102399
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Oct 11, 2014 3:17:29 GMT
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Post by bethany102399 on May 5, 2017 18:19:10 GMT
So if the family didn't "own" the seat, how does someone larger buy 2 seats under the same name and occupy them both? The family in the story bought the seat for their 18 year old. He was NOT on the flight (they put him on an earlier one) that's the key here. Jane Smith wants as much room as possible so she buys 2 seats. BOTH seats are in her name. When she checks in she has 2 boarding passes in her name as Jane Smith. She is physically on the plane and therefore in possession of those 2 seats. If the stewardess tried to take the extra seat/inquired about it Jane would produce the boarding pass that has HER name on it which gives her access to the second seat.
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Post by hollymolly on May 5, 2017 18:26:12 GMT
Ok so how in the world did this family get on board with 2 children and a car seat? They would have had to have had a 3rd boarding pass right? Delta wouldn't be apologizing and trying to make it right while the media is playing this video clip over and over again if they didn't do something wrong. Maybe the family is to share in the blame, but seriously Delta let them board the plane and strap in the carseat before confronting the family.....really??? Not necessarily. Both parents' boarding passes would have indicated Lap Baby. Carrying a car seat doesn't mean they intend to strap it into a third seat. I've seen a lot of people gate check their car seat. It's cheaper than checking it at ticketing because at the gate it's free. That was probably the assumption of the gate agent. That generally happens at the end of the jet bridge, out of view of the gate agent, who is busy checking in the other passengers anyway. Why did Delta let them strap the seat in before they were confronted? Probably because the flight attendants didn't know right away that the seat wasn't in the baby's name. They don't check tickets unless there's a conflict. Which there must have been if someone else boarded later with that seat assignment. I just got off a plane a little over an hour ago. When we were boarding in Dallas, a woman got on with a baby in a car seat/carrier. I overheard the flight attendant tell her (very nicely, I might add) that her particular car seat was not compliant, didn't have the stickers saying it was safe for airplanes, and they (the airline) would be fined if they allowed it to be used on the plane. The passenger cooperated and both flight attendants helped her to her seat and let her get settled. Then after she took the baby out of the carrier they put it in the overhead. She was behind me, so I don't know if she had an empty seat beside her or not, I just know where they put the carrier because I heard them discussing whether or not it would fit. The flight attendants were both really sweet about it, talking to the baby and helping the mom with all of her stuff. Kindness and cooperation go a long way.
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Post by elaine on May 5, 2017 18:28:56 GMT
I don't think that's right. According to the news report, they bought 3 tickets--for the parents and the older son. Neither of the younger children had a seat. They were going to put one of them in the older son's seat and hold the other one. Unfortunately the reporting on this is abysmal. Some articles say both were lap babies. One said they bought 4 tickets (which would mean the 2 year old who I think was actually the daughter, did have a paid for seat). Who the hell cares what the facts are, it's better to just put out the quick click bait of baby's kicked out of seat. You're guaranteed lots of outrage without most caring what the facts are and the family can get a check from the airline who just wants the whole thing to go away. I've watched stories about this two mornings in a row on Good Morning America. According to them the family bought 4 tickets. The video footage clearly shows that they have two children - a 2 y.o. and a 1 y.o. Their coverage actually hasn't been that abysmal, IMO.
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used2scrap
Drama Llama
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Jan 29, 2016 3:02:55 GMT
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Post by used2scrap on May 5, 2017 18:44:11 GMT
So if the family didn't "own" the seat, how does someone larger buy 2 seats under the same name and occupy them both? The family in the story bought the seat for their 18 year old. He was NOT on the flight (they put him on an earlier one) that's the key here. Jane Smith wants as much room as possible so she buys 2 seats. BOTH seats are in her name. When she checks in she has 2 boarding passes in her name as Jane Smith. She is physically on the plane and therefore in possession of those 2 seats. If the stewardess tried to take the extra seat/inquired about it Jane would produce the boarding pass that has HER name on it which gives her access to the second seat. That makes sense... But Delta says the flight wasn't overbooked, and airlines will let people put a car seat for a lap baby in a vacant seat (for safety I would presume), since the 18 year old didn't board and the flight wasn't overbooked, shouldn't the seat have been vacant then? and available for a lap baby with a car seat?
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