ellen
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,734
Jun 30, 2014 12:52:45 GMT
|
Post by ellen on May 8, 2017 20:16:49 GMT
We've taken people with us on vacation (adults and sometimes adults with kids) and we have taken care of all of the lodging expenses. We were renting houses and had room for them, or we chose the house based on how many people were going with us. These were all family members and they knew that we were taking care of the lodging. They just needed to pay for their airfare and expenses when we got there. It worked out great for all of us. Our vacations were more fun because they were with us.
If we invited a friend of our kid to go with us, we would not expect them to contribute to the lodging expenses. I would only expect them to bring spending money. I'd take care of their meals unless the parents were insistent that they'd pay for it - like your friend was. I feel like if you had to rent a bigger place because of this kid and wanted them to help pay for that you should have let them know that before you went on this trip. I can see why she was caught off guard by the extra amount.
|
|
zella
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,884
Jul 7, 2014 19:36:30 GMT
|
Post by zella on May 8, 2017 20:19:38 GMT
When we have taken a friend on holiday with us we have covered all expenses other than spending money. This means flight, hotel, meals and activities. To me that is normal, and I'd never expect the parents to reimburse us.
If a different expectation was agreed to before the trip, then I don't understand why she is now balking. But if it wasn't laid out then I would expect for you to pay all costs.
|
|
|
Post by melanell on May 8, 2017 20:50:07 GMT
Oh dear. This (based only on the Op at this point) sounds like a very unfortunate miscommunication. I think that in your friend's shoes, I would have been darn sure I knew exactly what was expected financially before I ever sent my child. In fact, I would have tried to prepay as much of it as possible. And in your shoes, I think I would have done the same---try to be as sure as I could that the other person completely understood, and again, I would have been more comfortable if at least the costs that were already known (the accommodations, for instance) had been paid by my friend ahead of time. Now, personally, as I said, I would expect to pay for everything for my child unless specifically told otherwise, and I would want to prepay it, or send any necessary funds for my child with one of the adults on the trip so that nothing or very little would need to change hands after their return. However, I would not invite a child on a trip unless I was in a position to cover pretty much all of the necessities and admission to anything my family was already planning to do. I would only ask that the child bring along spending money. That's how my family handled things like that when I was young and it's how other families handled it when I went with them. And it's how I've seen several other families handle similar situations. Not just small day trips, but even large ones. A family friend took my nephew with them to WDW & Universal for a week and they paid for everything but his souvenirs. They covered airfare from NY to FL, hotel, park tickets, and food. And that's the sort of thing I am used to seeing/hearing about. So I may have been surprised if you offered to take my child but also requested full repayment for everything, but I would have definitely asked you ahead of time just in case. This isn't the first time I've seen a financial matter make waves in a friendship. It's a tough thing to deal with for many people. I hope you and your friend can come to some sort of resolution, OP, and one that your DH will be okay with as well. Hugs!
|
|
scrapaddie
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,090
Jul 8, 2014 20:17:31 GMT
|
Post by scrapaddie on May 8, 2017 20:55:53 GMT
I would never consider bringing a child's friend along on vacation and ask the parents to pay. Sorry, I think you are in the wrong here. I agree. When we took a friend for dd, we paid everything. I would think it rude to offer an invitation.... And then expect to be paid
|
|
|
Post by pierogi on May 8, 2017 21:10:49 GMT
I don't have any advice, but wanted to offer you a hug. I sense what happened here had more to do with a cultural misunderstanding or perhaps something with Japanese etiquette/social protocol and obligations. Is there another Japanese that you feel comfortable sharing what happened and getting an "inside" perspective? That might help. The American in me would want to just go to her and just lay it out there, but that might only embarrass her and make things worse. I hope you two can work this out.
|
|
Grom Pea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,944
Jun 27, 2014 0:21:07 GMT
|
Post by Grom Pea on May 8, 2017 21:14:06 GMT
I haven't read all the responses and I realize the friend is Japanese, but in Chinese culture you as a host would insist on paying and your guest would fervently argue with you about paying until one if you graciously relented and allowed the other party to pay. I realize this sounds crazy but this is literally the scene of every meal with my parents generation who grew up in China, they will literally try to tug the bill out of the host's hands. Or intercept it and then the host tries to tug the bill away. Just food for thought. Personally if we had agreed up front I'd expect to be reimbursed but if it was unclear I'd not expect them to pay for the accommodation.
|
|
|
Post by monicad on May 8, 2017 21:22:36 GMT
If we let our kids take friends on trips, we'd have them bring souvenir and food money (although most times we ended up paying for all of it). Our kids were usually friends with the kids whose families never took vacations so it was rarely reciprocated, but we still wanted our kids to have a good time. Personally, I think it's too much work to keep track of every expense and if you didn't negotiate that beforehand I'd let it go.
|
|
|
Post by peano on May 8, 2017 21:24:26 GMT
A couple of years ago we took one of DS’s friends on our vacation with us. This involved a week-long beach house rental and a two-night hotel stay at our stop-off in Virginia to see the U. of Virginia and Monticello. When I extended the invitation to her via email, I specifically spelled out that we would cover all expenses except souvenirs. We also got two hotel rooms in this instance rather than the one we would have ordinarily gotten.
I think that when you make this kind of offer you have just got to be very clear about what you will cover and what you won't to avoid the situation you're in. I think your assumptions about the lifestyle you see them leading and your own view of what you would expect in a similar situation is what got you here.
|
|
|
Post by Spongemom Scrappants on May 8, 2017 21:29:53 GMT
Instead of beating a dead horse here and being the 47th person to say I wouldn't have expected reimbursement which is probably making you sick with tears and anxiety, I'll say what I would personally do from here on out. First of all, it's okay! This will not ruin your friendship. Don't cry... The good thing is this can all be explained so you can move on. What a kind post and I agree that this situation is far from being a lost cause. You and your friend can come to an understanding and move forward. And hopefully, this will become something that you can look back on and laugh about.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 28, 2024 8:26:09 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2017 21:37:34 GMT
I hope you are feeling better. And I hope that this cloud up your memory of what sounds like a great trip.
|
|
cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,387
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
|
Post by cycworker on May 8, 2017 22:22:01 GMT
I think when you're inviting another child to attend, as company for your child, you pay the accommodation & food.
That said, I also see a grey area. I think the nature of the relationship between the adults plays a role. The two adults in this scenario seem to have a genuine relationship, vs a scenario where the parents of the kids in questions are more like friendly acquaintances, who know each other well enough to feel confident their kids are safe together, but the adults don't have their own separate friendship. That, to me, calls for a greater level of communication.
What's tripping me up is some of the formal language people are using: words like host, guest... In my circle we'd only bring along another kid who was family or close to it, like my mom bringing my cousin G, or my brother's best friend at the time, R. The parents had the kind of relationship where it was just as easy to not worry about expenses, because you knew the other parent was going to take your kid on an excursion of a similar cost soon enough.
The thing is, it doesn't necessarily sound like this family does the kinds of things that would provide an opportunity for any reciprocity.
I struggle with one piece of the whole issue, but I'm not sure it fits this thread. Basically - what constitutes the difference between 'hosting' and travelling together? Now, in the cases I'm thinking of, the people are peers/friends. Does that fact that it's person X's idea automatically mean they should be on the hook for all costs? When my friend S & I travel together, we split costs, regardless of who comes up with the idea of the trip.
|
|
|
Post by smokeynspike on May 8, 2017 22:33:44 GMT
When we offer to take kids places for my only child, we never expect them to pay for anything. They usually have money with them and I tell them to put it away, that it is our treat. We've never taken anyone on a big trip yet, but we would cover all costs, except for maybe souviners. If we couldn't do that, then I wouldn't offer for them to go!
Melissa
|
|
|
Post by hop2 on May 8, 2017 23:00:28 GMT
You don't want to ask me.
When we were kids if my parents took one of our friends the only thing they needed to bring was spending money money dad wouldn't offer if he expected them to pay.
I haven't ever brought on if my kids friends on a whole vacation yet ( my DH would freak ) but what trips we have brought them in I pay for them ( mostly museums or day trips, going to the city )
But if your deal was for them to pay you back then I see nothing my wrong in including the increase in accommodation.
|
|
Kerri W
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,788
Location: Kentucky
Jun 25, 2014 20:31:44 GMT
|
Post by Kerri W on May 8, 2017 23:46:59 GMT
Basically - what constitutes the difference between 'hosting' and travelling together? Now, in the cases I'm thinking of, the people are peers/friends. Does that fact that it's person X's idea automatically mean they should be on the hook for all costs? When my friend S & I travel together, we split costs, regardless of who comes up with the idea of the trip. I understand and agree with what you're saying...between two adults. When you invite a child, you pay, IMO. We aren't discussing two peers traveling together.
|
|
imsirius
Prolific Pea
Call it as I see it.
Posts: 7,661
Location: Floating in the black veil.
Jul 12, 2014 19:59:28 GMT
|
Post by imsirius on May 8, 2017 23:53:26 GMT
I believe the OP lives in Japan.
|
|
|
Post by Zee on May 9, 2017 0:04:51 GMT
I think when you're inviting another child to attend, as company for your child, you pay the accommodation & food. That said, I also see a grey area. I think the nature of the relationship between the adults plays a role. The two adults in this scenario seem to have a genuine relationship, vs a scenario where the parents of the kids in questions are more like friendly acquaintances, who know each other well enough to feel confident their kids are safe together, but the adults don't have their own separate friendship. That, to me, calls for a greater level of communication. What's tripping me up is some of the formal language people are using: words like host, guest... In my circle we'd only bring along another kid who was family or close to it, like my mom bringing my cousin G, or my brother's best friend at the time, R. The parents had the kind of relationship where it was just as easy to not worry about expenses, because you knew the other parent was going to take your kid on an excursion of a similar cost soon enough. The thing is, it doesn't necessarily sound like this family does the kinds of things that would provide an opportunity for any reciprocity. I struggle with one piece of the whole issue, but I'm not sure it fits this thread. Basically - what constitutes the difference between 'hosting' and travelling together? Now, in the cases I'm thinking of, the people are peers/friends. Does that fact that it's person X's idea automatically mean they should be on the hook for all costs? When my friend S & I travel together, we split costs, regardless of who comes up with the idea of the trip. There's a big difference between traveling with friends and bringing along your child's friend as a guest.
|
|
|
Post by Chips on May 9, 2017 0:05:00 GMT
If I offered to take my child's friend on a trip I would expect to pay everything. If the parent offered to pay I would say not at all necessary but probably would accept souvenir money from the parent they wanted some gifts brought home.
The little experience that I have with the Japanese culture is when my Uncle Jack (who has lived in Japan as a Jesuit for almost 60 years). When he travels back to the U.S. with his Japanese friends, these friends insist on paying for any family or friend that my Uncle Jack is seeing when they visit. Some times these are big groups and they still insist on paying (no other option).
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 28, 2024 8:26:09 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 0:05:32 GMT
I hope you are feeling better. And I hope that this cloud up your memory of what sounds like a great trip. OMG. This should be I hope it doesn't cloud your memory. Sorry!
|
|
gina
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,297
Jun 26, 2014 1:59:16 GMT
|
Post by gina on May 9, 2017 0:11:54 GMT
I would never take another kid on vacation and expect the parents to pay. if I invite, it is with the understanding that I am covering the costs. I am a little shocked at handing over an itemized bill for food the kid ate..?! Am I reading that right?
|
|
Nanner
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,987
Jun 25, 2014 23:13:23 GMT
|
Post by Nanner on May 9, 2017 0:15:56 GMT
I would not have asked for reimbursement of accommodation.
|
|
|
Post by SallyPA on May 9, 2017 0:23:28 GMT
OP- I hope you can get it figured out with your friend. I personally cannot imagine taking another kid on vacation and paying for all of their expenses. We take 1-2 vacations a year and they are so expensive with just my family. I definitely wouldn't have it in my budget to absorb one more person's expenses (except perhaps lodging). My kids are lucky they have each other lol. But I think perhaps addressing it ahead of time would've been better.
Pretty in peank gave you some excellent advice. I am not perfect and my friends aren't either. There has to be room for grace and forgiveness in all relationships.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 28, 2024 8:26:09 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 0:48:52 GMT
I took my niece and asked her parents to pay airfare only, we covered everything else. I guess this means you both should have been more explicit before making the arrangement. I'm sure it is miserable being at odds with her.
|
|
cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,387
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
|
Post by cycworker on May 9, 2017 1:30:12 GMT
Kerri W Zee - definitely understand there's a difference between kids & adults in this context. That reference was just a different take on the idea that it's not as simple as 'whoever invites pays.' For me, I agree with the majority that in this case, OP should pay accomodation & food. I think I see it differently in that my reason for believing she shoudl is less about her & dh 'hosting' a 'guest' (just because that language feels so formal to me) and more like a version of 'in loco parentis,' so you treat that child as equal to/on equal footing with your own. Your provide/pay for the basic necessities for your own child; you should do the same for the child you've brought with you.
|
|
Harper Lee
Shy Member
Posts: 42
Jun 25, 2014 22:25:52 GMT
|
Post by Harper Lee on May 9, 2017 1:32:08 GMT
How stressful! What a terrible miscommunication. To answer your question, I would not expect to be reimbursed for food and lodging. It sounds like you two are on your way towards working it out. Good luck!
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 28, 2024 8:26:08 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 2:26:03 GMT
Wow - that's a lot of replies while I was asleep!! Thank you all for your thoughts, theories and virtual hugs. I truly appreciate them all. I have only had experience of this when my daughter went to Florida with a friend to stay at their apartment. We gave them $200 to cover expenses and offered extra when they returned.
Just to answer a couple of questions. We did invite him to come along, they didn't ask us. He was supposed to come with us last year as his dad was having digestive issues that couldn't be diagnosed in Japan, so they were going to SF for week long testing. They didn't want to take their son so I offered to take him on vacation, but they couldn't get a plane ticket at short notice so he didn't end up coming. So we invited him this year as he hasn't had a beach vacation for a long time.
We have a very reciprocal relationship. If I give her something, she always wants to reimburse me. If I buy her kid a donut on the way home from school, she always tries to give me the money. She often wants to pay me if she uses my fabric when quilting. I have to remind her often that her translation 'services' are more than enough, but still her favorite phrase is 'I feel guilty'. This is one reason I thought she would want to pay for everything.
We never discussed accommodation costs before we left, but we did discuss food (every meal was at a restaurant), activities and souvenirs. She told me to buy him anything he wants and let him do any activity he wants. So that was never an issue. She gave him $20 to spend, but we didn't bother to exchange it due to the rates.
Regarding the itemized list - I can totally see now how it could come across as business like or nickel and diming her. My intention was to provide absolute transparency so she would know exactly what the expenses were for.
Her child did not know I was tracking his expenses and wouldn't have cared. He was mostly oblivious to everything except his cell phone.
Before we left she complained she had taken another of her son's friends to a restaurant and the child had ordered the most expensive steak on the menu, including an appetizer, dessert, and two milkshakes. She was annoyed that it was so expensive. I suppose I wanted to let her know that his meals weren't excessive.
She is Japanese and her DH is American. He is always encouraging her to spend more money - he's even joked about it to me, but she's very frugal. She is also very western in her thinking, so I don't think it's a cultural difference, just an example of miscommunication.
This isn't really a case of money. They can afford to pay us back, we can afford for them not to. I think it's more the principle. I assumed she did not want to be 'indebted' to me due to her past behaviors.
This is certainly a strange dilemma for me. I would just pay up, and not risk ruining the friendship for the sake of a few hundred dollars. But she obviously felt as blindsided as I do.
You live and learn!! Hopefully we'll get past it.
|
|
|
Post by hollymolly on May 9, 2017 2:34:49 GMT
Thanks for the update! It sounds like you are feeling much better about it now. I can absolutely see where you were coming from based on your history with her. I'm sure you will both be able to put this behind you soon, and next time your sons vacation together you'll be able to talk about expectations more easily and clearly. It sounds like you have a good friendship. I think that this was no one's fault, just a misunderstanding that caught you both off guard.
|
|
|
Post by AussieMeg on May 9, 2017 2:36:30 GMT
I'm sorry this has happened, it sounds like it was a case of miscommunication. I hope it all gets sorted out without damaging what sounds like a lovely friendship. Without reading any other responses:
We always take a friend for DS (and DD when she was younger) when we go away. It’s always to a beach house or mountain house, so the accommodation costs would be the same regardless of whether the friend was there or not. Usually the parents give us $50 or $100 to put towards food etc, but DSO always refuses to accept it. The only time we accepted money was when we went snow skiing, because the lift ticket / ski hire for 2 days was about $200. We cover the cost of all meals. The difference with us is that we are staying in a house so we cook most of the meals ourselves, and only eat out a couple of times. We have also paid for friends to do surfing lessons with our kids as well. (I asked for money from the parents in advance but DSO made me give it back haha!)
In your situation, where you had to get extra accommodation, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect the parents of the friend to cover part of that additional cost, but as you already know, that should have been discussed and agreed to up front. Knowing DSO, if we took a friend of DS’s away and we had to pay an additional $200 for accommodation, DSO would almost certainly refuse to accept money. We figure having a friend there is keeping DS occupied and makes his holiday more fun, so it’s win/win for us.
ETA: I just asked DSO and he stated emphatically that it is our choice to take the friend and there is absolutely no way he would ask the parents of the friend for any money for food or accommodation. He is quite shocked that anyone would expect the parents to pay.
|
|
|
Post by 950nancy on May 9, 2017 2:38:50 GMT
We invite and pay for "the girlfriend" to go on some of our family trips. She brings her own spending money, but we foot the bill for everything else. Everyone knew before we left on the first trip that this was the arrangement.
OP, sometimes you really try to do everything right and things go wrong. I hope you can salvage your relationship with your friend. A good friend isn't worth losing over money.
|
|
|
Post by AussieMeg on May 9, 2017 2:48:37 GMT
This isn't really a case of money. They can afford to pay us back, we can afford for them not to. I think it's more the principle. I assumed she did not want to be 'indebted' to me due to her past behaviors. Yes, having read your most recent post, it does seem strange she didn't expect to pay for the accommodation seeing that she usually tries to give you money for a donut!!
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 28, 2024 8:26:09 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 3:01:29 GMT
We have a very reciprocal relationship. If I give her something, she always wants to reimburse me. If I buy her kid a donut on the way home from school, she always tries to give me the money. She often wants to pay me if she uses my fabric when quilting. I have to remind her often that her translation 'services' are more than enough, but still her favorite phrase is 'I feel guilty'. This is one reason I thought she would want to pay for everything. I think the difference with the examples you posted is that those were her ways of showing gratitude for you doing something nice for her child. You didn't ask her to reimburse you. She wanted to reimburse you. However, with this trip, you invited her child and then asked to be reimbursed for everything. She agreed to the food and the excursions, but you assumed she would want to reimburse you for housing and presented her with a bill. Since you already stated that money isn't an issue, I would just apologize for the misunderstanding and tell her to put aside the $200 to use towards taking the boys out at a later date.
|
|