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Post by prapea on Feb 15, 2018 14:20:51 GMT
The fact that this thread is labeled as politics is the problem. Kids and the adults trying to protect them died and we are making it political.
We shouldn’t be scared to send our kids to school.
We shouldn’t be afraid that we may not see our kids at the end of the day.
We shouldn’t have to constantly assure grandparents that their grandkids are in a safe school.
We shouldn’t feel like we need to probably buy a bulletproof vest for our kids to wear to school.
But, here we are. Feeling all those things and some more. Nothing ever changed. And I know nothing will ever change. All I am here to do is rant/bitch and in few days go back to pretending like nothing ever happened.
- signed, someone who is having a ridiculously hard time with this news.
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pudgygroundhog
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Feb 15, 2018 14:24:07 GMT
Oh, another thought. Our metro area suffered the loss of two LEOs this week. They were ambushed as they responded to a domestic violence call. The shooter was a convicted felon who got the gun from a friend who knew he was not allowed to own a gun, but purchased it for him anyway (for a $100 service fee). Today, the person who purchased the gun is in jail, denied bond, and facing up to 10 years in prison. His family is maintaining that he is a fine, upstanding citizen who played no role in the deaths of the two officers. By denying bail, the judge in this case is sending a strong message to the contrary. If others were to follow the judge's lead, holding gun owners/purchasers accountable, perhaps these individuals would think twice before providing guns to criminals who cannot legally obtain them. I read that story earlier and what a tragedy. I hope they charge the friend who gave him the gun in the deaths of the police officers - I absolutely agree there has to be accountability. I think that case also highlights how domestic violence is often a huge red flag in men who commit shootings like these. I don't think we take domestic violence seriously enough. |
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AmeliaBloomer
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Feb 15, 2018 14:30:10 GMT
And yes, I agree that this IS a form of terrorism.
And in most cases it's not being perpetrated by refugees or immigrants or minorities or poor or non-Christians, the usual terrorism bogeymen. Not many bogeywomen, either, which is notable within the context of the current larger abuse discussion. Again, largely: Our angry killers have some common characteristics.
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pudgygroundhog
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Feb 15, 2018 14:31:14 GMT
I personally think people try to simply fob this off on mental health and bullying to deflect away from guns. Politicians give a lot of lip service to mental health because it's an easy scapegoat, yet what do their actions on health care tell us?
It was widely believed that the Columbine shooters were bullied and it's a narrative that continues because it's a pat solution. A way to convince ourselves that only if we are nicer or people speak up or whatever bs reason that it won't happen to our kids and we can continue our love affair with AR-15s. I suggest to everybody to read the books Columbine and A Mother's Reckoning for a more accurate look at that school shooting. TLDR: bullying was not a factor.
Every country faces the same issues we do. Do we think the US alone is full of people with mental health issues (and I hate to even type that because it conflates mental health with people who commit these horrible acts) or bullying? What's different? Easy access to guns. This also contributes to suicide rates and a disturbing trend of rising number of teen suicides by gun.
Look - nobody is coming for your guns. There will be no ban on guns. But can we please have a realistic conversation about these issues and at least do the studies and research to see how we can do better?
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Deleted
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Nov 27, 2024 7:53:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 15:26:17 GMT
I "can't even" with this thread. Plenty of countries have mental health disease, bullying, pervasive social media, violent media and games.
We're the ones with the guns.
We're the ones with the school shootings. Yes, prospective killers have access to knives, cars, bombs. Yes, they are sometimes used, But we're the ones with the guns. We're the ones with the school shootings. No, we don't have multiple school shootings every day. But we're the ones with the guns. We're the ones with (vastly more) school shootings. And we're the ones with hundreds of politicians bankrolled by a gun rights organization. (All above applies to non-school mass shootings.) I wish I could like this 50,000,000 times. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 15:29:01 GMT
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Post by busy on Feb 15, 2018 15:32:32 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 15:36:11 GMT
Shooter:
Was expelled
Accused of abusing girlfriend
Fetishized killing animals
Treated for mental issues
Threatened teachers
Posted pics of himself with firearms on social media
Still legally able to buy a semiautomatic rifle and bulk ammo at age 19 - Shannon Watts
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Deleted
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Nov 27, 2024 7:53:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 15:41:57 GMT
Remember this? " President Donald Trump quietly signed a bill into law Tuesday rolling back an Obama-era regulation that made it harder for people with mental illnesses to purchase a gun. The rule, which was finalized in December, added people receiving Social Security checks for mental illnesses and people deemed unfit to handle their own financial affairs to the national background check database. Had the rule fully taken effect, the Obama administration predicted it would have added about 75,000 names to that database. " www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221No one is saying this alone is the answer. The answer is 1000 steps away. But this was one step. |
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Post by Really Red on Feb 15, 2018 15:49:14 GMT
Shooter: Was expelled Accused of abusing girlfriend Fetishized killing animals Treated for mental issues Threatened teachers Posted pics of himself with firearms on social media Still legally able to buy a semiautomatic rifle and bulk ammo at age 19 - Shannon Watts I seriously am weeping for humanity. |
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anniebygaslight
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Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Feb 15, 2018 15:55:48 GMT
We have our fair share of mental illness, dysfunctional families and bullies in the UK, but since the Cullen Report, and subsequent changes in the law regarding the ownership of guns following the Dunblane Massacre, over 20 years ago, we haven't had a single mass shooting in a school.
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ginacivey
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refupea #2 in southeast missouri
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Post by ginacivey on Feb 15, 2018 15:58:38 GMT
Shooter: Was expelled Accused of abusing girlfriend Fetishized killing animals Treated for mental issues Threatened teachers Posted pics of himself with firearms on social media Still legally able to buy a semiautomatic rifle and bulk ammo at age 19 - Shannon Watts clearly mentally unstable add to it that he was couch surfing after the death of his mother no one i know want weapons in the hands of the mentally unstable how can we gather up those that aren't earmarked by any authority? and keep them from having access to any weapons |
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pudgygroundhog
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Feb 15, 2018 16:08:21 GMT
Shooter: Was expelled Accused of abusing girlfriend Fetishized killing animals Treated for mental issues Threatened teachers Posted pics of himself with firearms on social media Still legally able to buy a semiautomatic rifle and bulk ammo at age 19 - Shannon Watts clearly mentally unstable add to it that he was couch surfing after the death of his mother no one i know want weapons in the hands of the mentally unstable how can we gather up those that aren't earmarked by any authority? and keep them from having access to any weapons I don't know - it's a good question and a good conversation to have. There are a lot of red flags there. I don't know if he was officially charged with any domestic abuse charges, but I think that's a huge red flag (if you look at mass shootings and even non-mass shootings, this is often a common factor). I don't have the article/statistics handy, but I know some states have had success with laws regarding domestic violence flags and the ability to get a gun (this is more common in protecting the women and reducing their likelihood of deaths by domestic violence, but I think it could also have an effect on men that commit other shootings as well). I think it's a hard question - there is no official way to say "I think this person is dangerous, take away their guns". And just because somebody is treated for mental issues doesn't mean they are violent, so how do we differentiate. Clearly this guy should not have had guns, especially ones with high capacity magazines and I'm trying to think of a system that would have effectively prevented him from having a gun. And I have to be honest, I don't think there is much luck of getting any legislation passed that would actually affect change in this. Anything that even hints at guns being taken away from people will be shot down before the ink is even dry on the proposal. In the case mentioned upthread of the domestic abuser who should not have had guns, being given a gun by a friend then killing two police officers - I think you have to throw the book and charge the friend who gave him the gun. There has to be some accountability for guns that fall into the hands of people who should not have them. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Feb 15, 2018 16:14:08 GMT
Shooter: Was expelled Accused of abusing girlfriend Fetishized killing animals Treated for mental issues Threatened teachers Posted pics of himself with firearms on social media Still legally able to buy a semiautomatic rifle and bulk ammo at age 19 - Shannon Watts clearly mentally unstable add to it that he was couch surfing after the death of his mother no one i know want weapons in the hands of the mentally unstable how can we gather up those that aren't earmarked by any authority? and keep them from having access to any weapons Before considering gathering up anything - perhaps we can just start with whether our purchasing laws make sense. I disagree with the idea that the minimum age to purchase a handgun from a licensed dealer is 21, but a long gun is 18. I think it's an antiquated distinction from when long gun's were hunting rifles. I would consider an 18 minimum age for non-semiautomatic weapons, but it's asinine that an 18 year old can walk in and purchase an AR-15 legally. The magnitude of this tragedy is absolutely exacerbated by the weapon choice - frankly if he was carrying a handgun as the shooter in the Kentucky school, we would probably be looking at similar casualties - but the laws think that weapon was too dangerous for him to purchase. |
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AmeliaBloomer
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Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Feb 15, 2018 16:15:15 GMT
] Look - nobody is coming for your guns. There will be no ban on guns. But can we please have a realistic conversation about these issues and at least do the studies and research to see how we can do better? There might be a thread about this, but I haven't been around: Remington, the American gun manufacturer, just filed for bankruptcy. Apparently, gun sales fell way off when Donald Trump was elected. Democratic presidents, especially the fact of Barack Obama and the idea of Hillary Clinton, cause a huge surge in gun sales...which is the result of a planned, profitable public perception campaign. Somebody upthread expressed dismay that this thread is political. That also dismays me, but the political (and business) undercurrents are unavoidable: the politicians that are being supported by the NRA significantly contribute (either with explicit rhetoric or tacit endorsement) to the national "They're coming for your guns" discourse. I haven't heard any examples of gun rights politicians trying to reasonably stem that rhetoric. Not hard to draw the line between some dots there: NRA, gun manufacturers, politicians, voters. Until they stop bending over backwards to not alienate Joe Gun Owner Voter (and Joe's mentally ill son), nothing will be done. Instead, it's like they're trying to inflame Joe. |
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ginacivey
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refupea #2 in southeast missouri
Posts: 4,685
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Post by ginacivey on Feb 15, 2018 16:19:54 GMT
so many people don't obey the gun laws we already have
domestic abusers can't purchase guns - or live in homes with weapons - yet they do
their wives or friends buy the guns - how often do you think anyone checks to see if there are guns in the home - NEVER
under 21 in my state can not purchase a weapon but above 18 they can be 'gifted' a gun - i'm sure that has a lot to do with hunting but it extends to all legal gun purchases
even if this kid were on a list and excluded from weapon ownership - how do we keep his buddy from getting the gun?
how do we keep him from stealing a gun?
black market guns?
people on both sides of the gun debate seem to want the same thing -
i see all these threads begging 'do something' but what?
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ginacivey
Pearl Clutcher
refupea #2 in southeast missouri
Posts: 4,685
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Post by ginacivey on Feb 15, 2018 16:21:17 GMT
but it's asinine that an 18 year old can walk in and purchase an AR-15 legally. gun laws vary by state....and 18 can not walk into a gun store in missouri and purchase any gun |
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Post by Merge on Feb 15, 2018 16:28:12 GMT
clearly mentally unstable add to it that he was couch surfing after the death of his mother no one i know want weapons in the hands of the mentally unstable how can we gather up those that aren't earmarked by any authority? and keep them from having access to any weapons Before considering gathering up anything - perhaps we can just start with whether our purchasing laws make sense. I disagree with the idea that the minimum age to purchase a handgun from a licensed dealer is 21, but a long gun is 18. I think it's an antiquated distinction from when long gun's were hunting rifles. I would consider an 18 minimum age for non-semiautomatic weapons, but it's asinine that an 18 year old can walk in and purchase an AR-15 legally. The magnitude of this tragedy is absolutely exacerbated by the weapon choice - frankly if he was carrying a handgun as the shooter in the Kentucky school, we would probably be looking at similar casualties - but the laws think that weapon was too dangerous for him to purchase. I agree. I would go a step further to say that gun and ammunition purchases should require a license with each purchase, and the licensing process should involve an application, medical exam and interview. Licenses should be renewed every so many years, like drivers licenses. And the gun show/private sale loophole must absolutely be stopped. The purpose of the licensing process is not to be punitive to those who are responsible with their guns, but to acknowledge that there are some people who pose a significant safety risk, and that this is what we as a society do to mitigate that risk. It doesn’t keep guns out of the hands of the same and mentally stable, but it does pose a significant barrier to gun ownership for those with thoughts of crime or suicide. I’m sure there are implementation hurdles to be overcome with something like this, but those can be worked out - if we want to do the work to make people safer. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Feb 15, 2018 16:29:22 GMT
but it's asinine that an 18 year old can walk in and purchase an AR-15 legally. gun laws vary by state....and 18 can not walk into a gun store in missouri and purchase any gun I think this is a common sense change that could be made on the federal level. No it won't be perfect - if we were looking for 100% compliance there would never be any laws passed. We make it harder. We put common sense laws on the books and enforce them. Close ridiculous loopholes allow unlicensed dealers to sell at gun shows (many states have, but that should be nationwide). We know strawman purchases are a problem (people buying weapons for those who can't legally obtain them). Prosecute the hell out of anyone who purchases a gun for someone else and lock their ass up for MURDER if that weapon is used in a homicide. Start with the easy stuff. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Feb 15, 2018 16:30:37 GMT
If every black adult male in the U.S. bought & registered a semi-automatic rifle tomorrow, Congress would Pass gun control laws by Friday. ~Eric Benet
Of all people to comment intelligibly about gun control *rolls eyes*
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Post by Merge on Feb 15, 2018 16:30:50 GMT
so many people don't obey the gun laws we already have domestic abusers can't purchase guns - or live in homes with weapons - yet they do their wives or friends buy the guns - how often do you think anyone checks to see if there are guns in the home - NEVER under 21 in my state can not purchase a weapon but above 18 they can be 'gifted' a gun - i'm sure that has a lot to do with hunting but it extends to all legal gun purchases even if this kid were on a list and excluded from weapon ownership - how do we keep his buddy from getting the gun? how do we keep him from stealing a gun? black market guns? people on both sides of the gun debate seem to want the same thing - i see all these threads begging 'do something' but what? No solution is going to be foolproof. But we shouldn’t throw out “better” because it’s not “perfect.” |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 16:31:59 GMT
How long before he's back on the street making his fantasies a reality? "Authorities arrested a Washington state student suspected in a school shooting plot after his grandmother showed officers plans for an attack. Police in Everett, which is about 30 miles (48 kilometers) north of Seattle, arrested 18-year-old Joshua Alexander O’Connor on attempted murder and other charges at ACES High School on Tuesday, The Daily Herald reported. The arrest came one day before 17 people were killed and another 14 were injured in an unrelated school shooting in Parkland, Florida. Earlier, O’Connor’s grandmother called 911 and showed responding officers a journal where he allegedly drew up plans to shoot students and use homemade explosives at the school, police said. O’Connor wrote that he wanted the death count to be as high as possible so that the shooting would be infamous, according to court papers. His entries included details about making pressure-cooker bombs, activating inert grenades and deploying explosives for maximum casualties, court papers said. “I need to make this count,” O’Connor reportedly wrote. “I’ve been reviewing many mass shootings/bombings (and attempted bombings) I’m learning from past shooters/bombers mistakes.” Detectives serving a search warrant at the grandmother’s house seized the student’s journal, a rifle found inside a guitar case and inert grenades. Public defender Rachel Forde noted the gun and the grenade shells were legal to possess. She said the “musings and ventings” in O’Connor’s journal weren’t enough evidence to support a charge of attempted murder." time.com/5159578/student-suspect-washington-state-school-shooting-plot/ |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Feb 15, 2018 16:33:41 GMT
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Feb 15, 2018 16:33:51 GMT
so many people don't obey the gun laws we already have domestic abusers can't purchase guns - or live in homes with weapons - yet they do their wives or friends buy the guns - how often do you think anyone checks to see if there are guns in the home - NEVER under 21 in my state can not purchase a weapon but above 18 they can be 'gifted' a gun - i'm sure that has a lot to do with hunting but it extends to all legal gun purchases even if this kid were on a list and excluded from weapon ownership - how do we keep his buddy from getting the gun? how do we keep him from stealing a gun? black market guns? people on both sides of the gun debate seem to want the same thing - i see all these threads begging 'do something' but what? I think we need to understand the chain of ownership that leaves guns in the hands of people who shouldn't have them and people need to be held accountable. If you legally purchase a gun, you are now responsible for it, including if you give it to a friend who does something bad with it. All guns start out as legal guns - what are the points they turn illegal? Some states have basically no gun laws and some states have more strict laws - we have a lot of data and variables given the varying state laws - so let's look at what works and what doesn't work. |
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pudgygroundhog
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Feb 15, 2018 16:38:25 GMT
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pudgygroundhog
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Feb 15, 2018 16:44:26 GMT
If every black adult male in the U.S. bought & registered a semi-automatic rifle tomorrow, Congress would Pass gun control laws by Friday. ~Eric Benet Of all people to comment intelligibly about gun control *rolls eyes* When the Black Panthers armed themselves in the 60s, there was a wave of gun control legislation supported by Republicans. The Secret History of Guns |
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ginacivey
Pearl Clutcher
refupea #2 in southeast missouri
Posts: 4,685
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Post by ginacivey on Feb 15, 2018 16:45:26 GMT
I think this is a common sense change that could be made on the federal level. No it won't be perfect - if we were looking for 100% compliance there would never be any laws passed. We make it harder. We put common sense laws on the books and enforce them. Close ridiculous loopholes allow unlicensed dealers to sell at gun shows (many states have, but that should be nationwide). We know strawman purchases are a problem (people buying weapons for those who can't legally obtain them). Prosecute the hell out of anyone who purchases a gun for someone else and lock their ass up for MURDER if that weapon is used in a homicide. Start with the easy stuff. i, and most gun owners, believe all of this - No solution is going to be foolproof. But we shouldn’t throw out “better” because it’s not “perfect.” of course not - but what solution? the only one i ever hear mentioned is enforcing the laws on the books - making it harder to obtain a weapon. figuring out how to keep them out of the hands of the mentally unstable. all of these i agree whole heartedly. as do all the gun owners i know. we are all horrified at mass shootings Are you sure - this summary says 18 for a long gun. you are right - i was thinking only of handguns i'd assume long guns and rifles are a lower age for hunting purposes? I think we need to understand the chain of ownership that leaves guns in the hands of people who shouldn't have them and people need to be held accountable. If you legally purchase a gun, you are now responsible for it, including if you give it to a friend who does something bad with it. All guns start out as legal guns - what are the points they turn illegal? Some states have basically no gun laws and some states have more strict laws - we have a lot of data and variables given the varying state laws - so let's look at what works and what doesn't work. i'm glad to see people being held accountable . and i wish the laws were upheld. just because we own guns doesn't mean we are irrational or uncaring it's quite the opposite but we are often painted into one little corner - hell, i'm an active participant on this board since it's inception - i was on the original board since 2002 and i found out that one gal has no idea anything about me - other than i'm a gun owner it feels like - once she found that out - she had/has no interest in anything else about me i've shared many many facets of my life - but 'gun' is all that registered gina |
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Post by Skellinton on Feb 15, 2018 16:52:11 GMT
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Feb 15, 2018 16:54:55 GMT
I think we need to understand the chain of ownership that leaves guns in the hands of people who shouldn't have them and people need to be held accountable. If you legally purchase a gun, you are now responsible for it, including if you give it to a friend who does something bad with it. All guns start out as legal guns - what are the points they turn illegal? Some states have basically no gun laws and some states have more strict laws - we have a lot of data and variables given the varying state laws - so let's look at what works and what doesn't work. i'm glad to see people being held accountable . and i wish the laws were upheld. just because we own guns doesn't mean we are irrational or uncaring it's quite the opposite but we are often painted into one little corner - hell, i'm an active participant on this board since it's inception - i was on the original board since 2002 and i found out that one gal has no idea anything about me - other than i'm a gun owner it feels like - once she found that out - she had/has no interest in anything else about me i've shared many many facets of my life - but 'gun' is all that registered gina Thanks for engaging in conversation about it without hysterics of people coming to take your guns. I know many responsible gun owners (I grew up in rural Nebraska - that goes with the territory) and I don't think all gun owners are crazy and uncaring. I think to help reduce gun violence deaths we need to hear from responsible gun owners about how to move forward. I think many of us want the same things and I think there are solutions. This is from the article I posted above: For this study, Siegel and his colleagues decided to use this patchwork of policies as a natural experiment. They compared the intimate-partner homicide rates from 1991 to 2015 for each state, using the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports database. They looked at which states simply banned gun possession for people under IPV-related restraining orders, and which ones went a step further and required those people to actively turn in their firearms. They adjusted for such factors as each state's violent crime rate (minus homicide), the incarceration rate, the percentage of gun-owning households, the poverty rate, the unemployment rate and the income level. In states that simply banned gun possession, the gun-related intimate-partner homicide rate did not drop by a statistically significant amount. But in those that required offenders to surrender their guns, that rate dropped by a full 14%.
This drove the overall intimate-partner homicide rate down by 9.7% — which indicated that the laws really did seem to have a significant effect. Would-be offenders weren't simply resorting to other means of killing now that they did not have a gun. ----- This indicates that there are some laws and enforcement that have been effective. The problem is this is very state dependent. There are many states that would never enact laws like this because it involves anything with regulating guns. |
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Feb 15, 2018 16:58:04 GMT
Why aren't you on the horn with your legislators? Any gun control will need to start there. How do you know we aren't? I have called, emailed and sent a letter to both of my senators and my congressman. I also made a donation to the only one who doesn't take money from the NRA. What have you done? |
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