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Post by flanz on Jul 18, 2019 1:35:56 GMT
Even harder though was the posting of cars and license plates on the internet. My next door neighbor has been very vocally supportive of Trump on facebook. IRL she has loved us and she has been so grateful for help we have given her over the years. After talking with my husband we felt that while we would feel calm around her as we didn't think she would hurt us, not even the asylum seekers we might host in our home we couldn't trust friends of hers that didn't know us personally. We decided that we would only take my car to places where protesters might be and since there was only space in the garage at the time for one car it would always be my car in the garage hidden inside. And the thing that caught me the most was when there were 2 cars available the kids would always take DH's car and not mind because I never wanted them out alone when some recognized my car from the internet. I wish I could answer your question better. As I described above our family tries to observe more, be aware more and take precautions, but I acknowledge it isn't a great way to live. No one should have to feel fearful for their lives and the lives of their loved ones. Things have settled down here for awhile, but who knows when it will come again. As frustrating as it is, as scared as I might get I just keep having to ask myself and God what I should be doing. Usually it is the painstakingly slow steps that change hearts that I keep being guided towards while I keep doing what needs to be done to help the actual refugees and asylum seekers. Everyone once in awhile my heart says "you need to post something/stand up" on message boards, facebook, instagram, in person etc. and if I spend the time to word it as a bridge I see little things change. Just yesterday I saw someone like my facebook post about refugees that I never would have expected. I am sorry! Sorry your family has also had to deal with that! Me too! And I thank you also for your thoughtful replies in this thread pattyraindrops. (((HUGS)))
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,011
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Jul 18, 2019 3:05:53 GMT
pattyraindrops, I just want to say thank you for giving all of us some things to think about in terms of how to approach this. My husband's aunt (who I will admit I think is a flat out racist) responded in an ugly way to a post I made about ICE today and I had no idea what to say back which would a) make a difference in what she believes and b) not cause endless family drama so I chose to say nothing. But I've been feeling terrible about it all day because I don't think it's okay to let those types of statements go unchallenged. I appreciate your thoughtful approach to other ways to respond without being equally inflammatory.
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muggins
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,861
Jul 30, 2017 3:38:57 GMT
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Post by muggins on Jul 18, 2019 17:25:45 GMT
I must admit, I have a strong tendency to disengage from Trump supporters’ arguments. I just can’t be bothered with the ridiculous mental gymnastics required to justify the Daily shitstorm. However I was watching this Ted talk from Megan Phelps-Roper about leaving the Westbrook Baptist Church due to people(including her now DH) gently reasoning with her on Twitter. youtu.be/bVV2Zk88beY
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Jul 18, 2019 17:54:54 GMT
Simplifying this a LOT: "I fear my children and grandchildren getting shot in a drive-by shooting by gangs. I hear about drug cartels south of the border. How do I know, by looking at someone if they are in a Mexican gang who has kidnapped a child or a family running from a gang? Until I can tell that I need to keep my family safe by closing off the border and the wall will help. Trump supports the wall. I will support someone who keeps me safer. You keep telling me I am just like Trump. If you call him a racist then you must think I am one as well. This means you don't understand my fears and just want to call me names. " just because you hear things doesn't mean it's true. You have to look at the other factors involved to determine whether what you hear someone (ex: Trump, Hannity, et. al.) say is actually TRUE or not. Because it may (PROBABLY isn't) not be true, but is being said anyway, for a very particular reason, to prey on those fears; to generate a specific response, which is, in this case, hopefully voting for Trump in 2020. I could not STAND Joe Arpaio when he was in office here in Maricopa County. He would campaign on that fear-mongering every da*n time he was running for re-election... telling the retirees who lived in their gated 55+ communities than the Mexicans would break into their house and murder them in their beds, basically. The odds of that happening? Practically nil. But it got those people to go out and vote for him, because he supported getting rid of those 'brown' people. The same brown people that probably landscaped their yards, picked the produce they bought in the grocery store, cleaned some of their houses, worked in the restaurants and hotels they went to, etc. Somehow they weren't afraid of THOSE 'brown' people though; 'they' were different than the *bad* ones that the people didn't know and hadn't had personal contact with. What I cannot fathom is how people can not understand that a viewpoint like this: "some of 'them' (whoever 'them' is) are okay because they're somehow *different* than the majority, but the rest are across-the-board bad and can't be tolerated" is not hypocritical. (eta: removed the 'not' because this viewpoint IS hypocritical. grammar issue- oops!)
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Post by thundergal on Jul 18, 2019 18:14:02 GMT
pattyraindrops I'm checking back in to this thread and want to agree with others that your post is incredibly thought-provoking. I'm grateful that you're here and grateful for the work that you do.
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Post by pattyraindrops on Jul 18, 2019 19:21:48 GMT
Simplifying this a LOT: "I fear my children and grandchildren getting shot in a drive-by shooting by gangs. I hear about drug cartels south of the border. How do I know, by looking at someone if they are in a Mexican gang who has kidnapped a child or a family running from a gang? Until I can tell that I need to keep my family safe by closing off the border and the wall will help. Trump supports the wall. I will support someone who keeps me safer. You keep telling me I am just like Trump. If you call him a racist then you must think I am one as well. This means you don't understand my fears and just want to call me names. " just because you hear things doesn't mean it's true. You have to look at the other factors involved to determine whether what you hear someone (ex: Trump, Hannity, et. al.) say is actually TRUE or not. Because it may (PROBABLY isn't) not be true, but is being said anyway, for a very particular reason, to prey on those fears; to generate a specific response, which is, in this case, hopefully voting for Trump in 2020. I could not STAND Joe Arpaio when he was in office here in Maricopa County. He would campaign on that fear-mongering every da*n time he was running for re-election... telling the retirees who lived in their gated 55+ communities than the Mexicans would break into their house and murder them in their beds, basically. The odds of that happening? Practically nil. But it got those people to go out and vote for him, because he supported getting rid of those 'brown' people. The same brown people that probably landscaped their yards, picked the produce they bought in the grocery store, cleaned some of their houses, worked in the restaurants and hotels they went to, etc. Somehow they weren't afraid of THOSE 'brown' people though; 'they' were different than the *bad* ones that the people didn't know and hadn't had personal contact with. What I cannot fathom is how people can not understand that a viewpoint like this: "some of 'them' (whoever 'them' is) are okay because they're somehow *different* than the majority, but the rest are across-the-board bad and can't be tolerated" is not hypocritical. It is true that not all things you hear are true. It doesn't stop people from believing them though. You can tell a child there is no monster under the bed, but the child may continue to believe there is one there. That in no way means we should just let people do things based on that fear based on untruth. It just means that sometimes we need to find another way to deal with it. Screaming at the child to get in bed anyway is never going to work. But maybe letting her keep "monster spray" by the bed till she grows out of the fear will do it. Perhaps keeping a nightlight on. Perhaps raising the bed and camping out underneath one night. I was watching a thing about goals the other day. It talked about how we have subconscious goals and conscious goals. That we often make conscious goals, but until we also made them subconscious as well, our subconscious may fight the conscious goals. Explaining this way may not make sense because we always talk about bringing things out of our subconscious into our conscious state and not vice versa. I think the "some" problem is similar. As people get to know brown people or Muslims or whatever then being ok with "some" brown people starts to be ok for them, but they still have this subconscious they have lived with all of their lives and it is fighting the conscious part that is new to them so to make sense of it "some" people are ok. I would guess that nearly all of us have a "some people are ok". Some brown people are ok. Some Muslims. Some Christians. Some democrats. Some republicans. Some Israelis. Some Palestinians. Some baby boomers. Some millenials. Some grocery cart returners. Some cart leavers. The trick is how to we help people not fear the monster under their beds/get past the fear that is in the subconscious. To help them, they have to first trust, at least tentatively, the person who wpuld like them to change. So I don't see it so much hypocritical to be ok with "some", but more of a step towards being ok with all - which is a good thing as long as they keep moving forward, even if that is really slow. If we can help the concious part be ok with "some" and then help the "some" move into the subconscious, pushing the "none" out that is good. Maybe that's the place to start. Do we see "some" in a group as ok? Can we move ourselves forward on that? If we are working with others do we have an opportunity to help them meet more of the group they struggle with in an avenue that will let them trust? What else can we do to help people be ok with "one" of a group and then ok with "some" and then the group? Perhaps that may be a thing to really brainstorm on. Have everyone throw out ideas. Some of thos idea won't work. Some will and some will only work with this person or that person so as many idea that could be thrown out there would be a good thing.
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Post by pattyraindrops on Jul 18, 2019 19:27:12 GMT
This may be my last post on the thread. I know I didn't get back to some of you and I'm sorry about that. Perhaps some time I will. You had good things to say and I'm not ignoring them or hiding from them.
Sometimes this takes a lot out of me mentally and emotionally. I have also been procrastinating doing some things. So I'm choosing to put my energy in those things for now.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jul 18, 2019 20:45:05 GMT
just because you hear things doesn't mean it's true. You have to look at the other factors involved to determine whether what you hear someone (ex: Trump, Hannity, et. al.) say is actually TRUE or not. Because it may (PROBABLY isn't) not be true, but is being said anyway, for a very particular reason, to prey on those fears; to generate a specific response, which is, in this case, hopefully voting for Trump in 2020. I could not STAND Joe Arpaio when he was in office here in Maricopa County. He would campaign on that fear-mongering every da*n time he was running for re-election... telling the retirees who lived in their gated 55+ communities than the Mexicans would break into their house and murder them in their beds, basically. The odds of that happening? Practically nil. But it got those people to go out and vote for him, because he supported getting rid of those 'brown' people. The same brown people that probably landscaped their yards, picked the produce they bought in the grocery store, cleaned some of their houses, worked in the restaurants and hotels they went to, etc. Somehow they weren't afraid of THOSE 'brown' people though; 'they' were different than the *bad* ones that the people didn't know and hadn't had personal contact with. What I cannot fathom is how people can not understand that a viewpoint like this: "some of 'them' (whoever 'them' is) are okay because they're somehow *different* than the majority, but the rest are across-the-board bad and can't be tolerated" is not hypocritical. It is true that not all things you hear are true. It doesn't stop people from believing them though. You can tell a child there is no monster under the bed, but the child may continue to believe there is one there. That in no way means we should just let people do things based on that fear based on untruth. It just means that sometimes we need to find another way to deal with it. Screaming at the child to get in bed anyway is never going to work. But maybe letting her keep "monster spray" by the bed till she grows out of the fear will do it. Perhaps keeping a nightlight on. Perhaps raising the bed and camping out underneath one night. I was watching a thing about goals the other day. It talked about how we have subconscious goals and conscious goals. That we often make conscious goals, but until we also made them subconscious as well, our subconscious may fight the conscious goals. Explaining this way may not make sense because we always talk about bringing things out of our subconscious into our conscious state and not vice versa. I think the "some" problem is similar. As people get to know brown people or Muslims or whatever then being ok with "some" brown people starts to be ok for them, but they still have this subconscious they have lived with all of their lives and it is fighting the conscious part that is new to them so to make sense of it "some" people are ok. I would guess that nearly all of us have a "some people are ok". Some brown people are ok. Some Muslims. Some Christians. Some democrats. Some republicans. Some Israelis. Some Palestinians. Some baby boomers. Some millenials. Some grocery cart returners. Some cart leavers. The trick is how to we help people not fear the monster under their beds/get past the fear that is in the subconscious. To help them, they have to first trust, at least tentatively, the person who wpuld like them to change. So I don't see it so much hypocritical to be ok with "some", but more of a step towards being ok with all - which is a good thing as long as they keep moving forward, even if that is really slow. If we can help the concious part be ok with "some" and then help the "some" move into the subconscious, pushing the "none" out that is good. Maybe that's the place to start. Do we see "some" in a group as ok? Can we move ourselves forward on that? If we are working with others do we have an opportunity to help them meet more of the group they struggle with in an avenue that will let them trust? What else can we do to help people be ok with "one" of a group and then ok with "some" and then the group? Perhaps that may be a thing to really brainstorm on. Have everyone throw out ideas. Some of thos idea won't work. Some will and some will only work with this person or that person so as many idea that could be thrown out there would be a good thing. I sure do wish we had some (effective) “trip-away-spray” or repellent. They’re Just like snakes—no really effective way and relatively simple way to rid our Earth of these nasty, slithering, venomous vermin.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 29, 2024 5:17:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2019 14:45:05 GMT
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Post by kelbel827 on Jul 20, 2019 21:23:23 GMT
I haven’t gotten past the first page but carli whatever her name is must not know about being a Pea. They can find out ANYTHING!!!
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Post by LiLi on Jul 21, 2019 18:46:27 GMT
Thank you guys. That was a momentary breakdown for sure. Xo
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casii
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,517
Jun 29, 2014 14:40:44 GMT
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Post by casii on Jul 21, 2019 20:49:04 GMT
You guys, I read the comments on a twitter thread of a lawyer who has filed suit against ICE. The comments were collected mostly from children who are being imprisoned, but some adult mothers of babies & young ones too. I am broken.
Where do we meet and what point do we get to before our voices are so loud that they shake the very stones of our nation? I know we're fatigued, but those babies, those children. I can't handle the evil callousness of what we're doing.
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janeliz
Drama Llama
I'm the Wiz and nobody beats me.
Posts: 5,641
Jun 26, 2014 14:35:07 GMT
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Post by janeliz on Jul 21, 2019 20:57:02 GMT
You guys, I read the comments on a twitter thread of a lawyer who has filed suit against ICE. The comments were collected mostly from children who are being imprisoned, but some adult mothers of babies & young ones too. I am broken. Where do we meet and what point do we get to before our voices are so loud that they shake the very stones of our nation? I know we're fatigued, but those babies, those children. I can't handle the evil callousness of what we're doing. A friend and I got together and donated some money to RAICES Texas, but other than that I feel completely helpless and heartbroken. Crying tears and donating money doesn’t seem like enough. I can’t fathom the cruelty of the people who are turning away from what is happening.
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Post by Skellinton on Jul 21, 2019 21:40:53 GMT
You guys, I read the comments on a twitter thread of a lawyer who has filed suit against ICE. The comments were collected mostly from children who are being imprisoned, but some adult mothers of babies & young ones too. I am broken. Where do we meet and what point do we get to before our voices are so loud that they shake the very stones of our nation? I know we're fatigued, but those babies, those children. I can't handle the evil callousness of what we're doing. It makes my physically ill to think of those kids. I feel awful for the adults too, I can’t imagine what is happening to them, but the children just break my heart. They must be so scared and confused. I would love to drive to the border and just volunteer to help care for them, but I know that isn’t realistic. I too would love to know where to donate, where to call, where to protest, where to do whatever it takes to make this stop. This must be fixed, everyday day, Hell, every hour that goes by these children are being damaged and hurt in ways that they may never recover from.
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Post by elaine on Aug 4, 2019 0:00:33 GMT
Two Mass shootings in 1 week by 2 different White Supremacist scumbags.
Innocent children mowed down in the name of White Nationalism.
When will it be enough for you Trump supporters?
Who else needs to be killed for you to finally realize and speak out against Trump’s support of White Supremacists and his blatant repeated public racist statements?
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Post by refugeepea on Aug 4, 2019 0:15:13 GMT
This is why I am pro death penalty. It doesn't mean it's something I believe should be freely given either. When someone takes such careless disregard for human life and it IS obvious who did the killing of innocent people, his life no longer matters. I'm okay with an execution.
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Post by elaine on Aug 4, 2019 0:26:51 GMT
This is why I am pro death penalty. It doesn't mean it's something I believe should be freely given either. When someone takes such careless disregard for human life and it IS obvious who did the killing of innocent people, his life no longer matters. I'm okay with an execution. If it was a deterrent, I’d be on the bench next to you. But numerous studies of the data involved have shown that the death penalty doesn’t work to prevent these things from happening. IMO, it would be *very* important for Trump supporters to recognize that his irresponsible verbiage has consequences. And that if they want to claim some moral high ground of valuing life, then they should speak out against his rhetoric that is leading to these sick white male terrorists who shoot innocent adults and children in the name of MAGA.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Aug 4, 2019 0:39:26 GMT
Today's shooter , I believe, is a dt supporter!! 20 dead, at least 24 wounded.......... some are critical and may die....
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Post by mnmloveli on Aug 4, 2019 1:37:06 GMT
Actually the 3rd mass shooting this week but the first one last Saturday was not by a white spremacist. It was by a suspected black male terrorist who is still on the loose. It was at the Annual Old Timers Festival in Brooklyn NY. 12 people were shot and 1 died.
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Post by elaine on Aug 4, 2019 2:01:35 GMT
Actually the 3rd mass shooting this week but the first one last Saturday was not by a white spremacist. It was by a suspected black male terrorist who is still on the loose. It was at the Annual Old Timers Festival in Brooklyn NY. 12 people were shot and 1 died. Yes, it was another mass shooting. A tragedy. Not apparently by a terrorist, but a gang-related shooting, and still an awful tragedy. May the victims memories be eternal. eta: article on the differences between gang and domestic terrorism: www.colorado.edu/today/2017/05/18/domestic-terrorists-gang-members-have-little-common-study-shows
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Post by refugeepea on Aug 4, 2019 3:44:15 GMT
If it was a deterrent, I’d be on the bench next to you. But numerous studies of the data involved have shown that the death penalty doesn’t work to prevent these things from happening. I know it's not a deterrent. I'm okay with it being a punishment.
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Post by alsomsknit on Aug 4, 2019 15:13:08 GMT
If it was a deterrent, I’d be on the bench next to you. But numerous studies of the data involved have shown that the death penalty doesn’t work to prevent these things from happening. I know it's not a deterrent. I'm okay with it being a punishment. Are you also OK with innocent people being murdered by use of the death penalty? People are convicted of murders they didn’t commit for many reasons. Juries have given a gay man the death penalty simply because they felt he would ‘enjoy’ prison. Do I have feelings of vengeance/retribution/justice? Sure. However, as long as our ‘justice’ system is anything but just, I am not OK with this system sentencing people to death due to their track record.
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Post by femalebusiness on Aug 4, 2019 15:33:12 GMT
I know it's not a deterrent. I'm okay with it being a punishment. Are you also OK with innocent people being murdered by use of the death penalty? People are convicted of murders they didn’t commit for many reasons. Juries have given a gay man the death penalty simply because they felt he would ‘enjoy’ prison. Do I have feelings of vengeance/retribution/justice? Sure. However, as long as our ‘justice’ system is anything but just, I am not OK with this system sentencing people to death due to their track record. There is a huge difference between someone being convicted of murder by circumstantial evidence and someone caught with an assault rifle while mowing down a group of people. Those caught red handed should be put down with a bullet to the head like a mad dog. I would happily do the job and sleep well at night,
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katybee
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,447
Jun 25, 2014 23:25:39 GMT
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Post by katybee on Aug 4, 2019 16:02:23 GMT
Actually the 3rd mass shooting this week but the first one last Saturday was not by a white spremacist. It was by a suspected black male terrorist who is still on the loose. It was at the Annual Old Timers Festival in Brooklyn NY. 12 people were shot and 1 died. Oh...I get it. We can call them a terrorist if they are black. Gotcha.
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Post by elaine on Aug 4, 2019 16:06:16 GMT
Actually the 3rd mass shooting this week but the first one last Saturday was not by a white spremacist. It was by a suspected black male terrorist who is still on the loose. It was at the Annual Old Timers Festival in Brooklyn NY. 12 people were shot and 1 died. Oh...I get it. We can call them a terrorist if they are black. Gotcha. And they just announced that the Dayton shooter was another White male.
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Post by refugeepea on Aug 4, 2019 17:35:10 GMT
Are you also OK with innocent people being murdered by use of the death penalty? This is why I am pro death penalty. It doesn't mean it's something I believe should be freely given either. When someone takes such careless disregard for human life and it ***IS*** obvious who did the killing of innocent people, his life no longer matters. I'm okay with an execution.
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Post by mnmloveli on Aug 4, 2019 18:28:44 GMT
Actually the 3rd mass shooting this week but the first one last Saturday was not by a white spremacist. It was by a suspected black male terrorist who is still on the loose. It was at the Annual Old Timers Festival in Brooklyn NY. 12 people were shot and 1 died. Oh...I get it. We can call them a terrorist if they are black. Gotcha. You misunderstood. I was calling all three of them terrorists. Elaine schooled me that the Brooklyn mass shooting was gang related and didn’t count towards these other two scenarios. I guess because the suspected shooter is black this incident didn’t count towards the white supremacist shooters. Elaine’s call; not mine.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 29, 2024 5:17:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 18:42:46 GMT
Actually the 3rd mass shooting this week but the first one last Saturday was not by a white spremacist. It was by a suspected black male terrorist who is still on the loose. It was at the Annual Old Timers Festival in Brooklyn NY. 12 people were shot and 1 died. Why hasn't that been widely or even narrowly reoorted
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Post by mnmloveli on Aug 4, 2019 19:01:33 GMT
Actually the 3rd mass shooting this week but the first one last Saturday was not by a white spremacist. It was by a suspected black male terrorist who is still on the loose. It was at the Annual Old Timers Festival in Brooklyn NY. 12 people were shot and 1 died. Why hasn't that been widely or even narrowly reoorted I can’t answer that. I wish I knew. Elaine schooled me that this was a gang related shooting and therefore different than a mass shooting. The Brooklyn gang shooter shot 12 and killed one. The Gilroy mass shooter shot 13 and killed 3. I don’t see a difference. Also just saw an article (many articles) that said the Gilroy shooter killed himself (not shot by police) and that the FBI got it wrong and he was not a white supremacist. The media coverage or lack of media coverage needs to be controlled better. Who actually decides what gets coverage and what doesn’t ? If it doesn’t fit whoever’s in control’s agenda, it simple gets no coverage and buried. So sad for all these Brooklyn families, along with Gilroy, El Paso & Dayton.
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Post by alsomsknit on Aug 4, 2019 19:02:15 GMT
Are you also OK with innocent people being murdered by use of the death penalty? This is why I am pro death penalty. It doesn't mean it's something I believe should be freely given either. When someone takes such careless disregard for human life and it ***IS*** obvious who did the killing of innocent people, his life no longer matters. I'm okay with an execution. What makes you think the death penalty would work any different now, if it were reinstated? You place caveats on the death penalty. Legally, it doesn’t work that way.
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