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Post by lucyg on Jul 17, 2019 18:30:42 GMT
And I bet that out of that $69,750 a month, you will manage to supply soap, toothpaste and running water. These freakin’ people! Why are Republican cronies making this kind of big money on prisons? I want ALL for-profit prisons AND “detention camps” closed down. No one should be profiting off this kind of human misery. I had that exact thought. Why are they quibbling over toothpaste, if that is the kind of money changing hands over the care of these people. And if they do have to quibble over it, where the hell is all that money going? 😦 Well, you know where it’s going. Into John Kelly’s pocket (he’s in the board of one of these places) and other Republican cronies. I think they could actually afford some toothpaste.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 18:46:34 GMT
"If you you find yourself or your children or your family on the chopping block, or in the gas chamber, or mown down by an asshole in a Dodge Charger, because you don’t meet the White Male Supremacist’ ideal and you haven’t spoken out, you have no one to blame but yourselves. I hope it is your children and not mine who suffer what you have wrought. And I will pray for that." I didn't interpret it, I read the words and took them at face value. Praying for children to be harmed is not something I can be silent about. You keep making partial quotes to take the statement out of context. Probably purposefully. Unless you just have a reading comprehension problem. If you don’t think Trump is inciting, encouraging and/or overlooking other’s doing those things, then Elaine did not wish your children harm. The Whole thing was pretty clear in context. If you DO think Trump is inciting, encouraging or turning a blind eye to people who are separating people into camps, labeling people, harming people, or getting rid of people or inciting people to run over others with dodge chargers then why do you support him? If you don’t support him then no worries she didn’t wish you or yours illEither way I don’t pray for anyone’s children to suffer the consequences of their parents actions. Mine, yours, or anyone’s. Not even Tiffany or Barron or the other ones. ( the other ones have their own issues to suffer from they don’t need his too ) Children should not suffer for the sins of their parents. They will though, but I don’t wish it or pray for it. I find it very telling that the original post by Elaine has people so up in arms but the crap Trump speaks isn’t a problem. I don't keep making partial quotes. One and only one time I took the entire quote from snowsilver's post and the only part I left out was "We know who some of the 25 who responded to the 4th of July Festivities poll are. They and the rest of you are typical White Supremacist lily-livered cowards." because I didn't think it pertained to her message. If you can tell me how that part above changes the meaning of "If you you find yourself or your children or your family on the chopping block, or in the gas chamber, or mown down by an asshole in a Dodge Charger, because you don’t meet the White Male Supremacist’ ideal and you haven’t spoken out, you have no one to blame but yourselves. I hope it is your children and not mine who suffer what you have wrought. And I will pray for that." I'll be open to hearing and being convinced that it changes the meaning.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Jul 17, 2019 18:49:21 GMT
I hope it is your children and not mine who suffer what you have wrought. And I will pray for that." I took that phrase to mean she was praying for the safety of her children, not praying for bad things to happen to other people's children.
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Post by moretimeplease on Jul 17, 2019 18:54:49 GMT
You keep making partial quotes to take the statement out of context. Probably purposefully. Unless you just have a reading comprehension problem. If you don’t think Trump is inciting, encouraging and/or overlooking other’s doing those things, then Elaine did not wish your children harm. The Whole thing was pretty clear in context. If you DO think Trump is inciting, encouraging or turning a blind eye to people who are separating people into camps, labeling people, harming people, or getting rid of people or inciting people to run over others with dodge chargers then why do you support him? If you don’t support him then no worries she didn’t wish you or yours illEither way I don’t pray for anyone’s children to suffer the consequences of their parents actions. Mine, yours, or anyone’s. Not even Tiffany or Barron or the other ones. ( the other ones have their own issues to suffer from they don’t need his too ) Children should not suffer for the sins of their parents. They will though, but I don’t wish it or pray for it. I find it very telling that the original post by Elaine has people so up in arms but the crap Trump speaks isn’t a problem. I don't keep making partial quotes. One and only one time I took the entire quote from snowsilver's post and the only part I left out was "We know who some of the 25 who responded to the 4th of July Festivities poll are. They and the rest of you are typical White Supremacist lily-livered cowards." because I didn't think it pertained to her message. If you can tell me how that part above changes the meaning of "If you you find yourself or your children or your family on the chopping block, or in the gas chamber, or mown down by an asshole in a Dodge Charger, because you don’t meet the White Male Supremacist’ ideal and you haven’t spoken out, you have no one to blame but yourselves. I hope it is your children and not mine who suffer what you have wrought. And I will pray for that." I'll be open to hearing and being convinced that it changes the meaning. Hop2 explained it. “If you are a Trump Supporter, then may you and yours suffer the consequences of his presidency.” If you are a Trump Supporter, then you probably aren’t worried - everything he’s doing to our country is hunky dory, A-OK, no harm no foul. If you think harm is going to come to children as a result of Trump’s presidency, then why would you support him? You’re stuck on the phrase “suffer what you have wrought.” The meaning of this is ambiguous until you attach your own personal feelings about what has been “wrought” (ie Trumps presidency). If you think she’s wishing harm to children of Trump supporters, then you clearly think Trump is bad for the country. All that said, there’s nothing wrong with hoping people bear the brunt of their mistakes in their own lives before others have to suffer for them. You don’t want to pay your house payment? Fine, you and your kids will be homeless before me and my kids will, since I’m still paying my house payment.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 18:55:15 GMT
I hope it is your children and not mine who suffer what you have wrought. And I will pray for that." I took that phrase to mean she was praying for the safety of her children, not praying for bad things to happen to other people's children. " I hope it is your children and not mine who suffer..." That's still hoping children suffer and in the context of mentioning gas chambers and being run over by a car, it doesn't look any better after your explanation. I think it's best if Elaine explains herself how she didn't mean she was praying for children to be harmed and not everyone talking for her, because it doesn't seem to be helping. I will go back and search for her explanation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 18:58:04 GMT
I don't keep making partial quotes. One and only one time I took the entire quote from snowsilver's post and the only part I left out was "We know who some of the 25 who responded to the 4th of July Festivities poll are. They and the rest of you are typical White Supremacist lily-livered cowards." because I didn't think it pertained to her message. If you can tell me how that part above changes the meaning of "If you you find yourself or your children or your family on the chopping block, or in the gas chamber, or mown down by an asshole in a Dodge Charger, because you don’t meet the White Male Supremacist’ ideal and you haven’t spoken out, you have no one to blame but yourselves. I hope it is your children and not mine who suffer what you have wrought. And I will pray for that." I'll be open to hearing and being convinced that it changes the meaning. Hop2 explained it. “If you are a Trump Supporter, then may you and yours suffer the consequences of his presidency.” If you are a Trump Supporter, then you probably aren’t worried - everything he’s doing to our country is hunky dory, A-OK, no harm no foul. If you think harm is going to come to children as a result of Trump’s presidency, then why would you support him? Whether or not *I* think harm will come to children under Trump doesn't change Elaine's praying for harm to come to children.
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Post by hop2 on Jul 17, 2019 19:01:31 GMT
You keep making partial quotes to take the statement out of context. Probably purposefully. Unless you just have a reading comprehension problem. If you don’t think Trump is inciting, encouraging and/or overlooking other’s doing those things, then Elaine did not wish your children harm. The Whole thing was pretty clear in context. If you DO think Trump is inciting, encouraging or turning a blind eye to people who are separating people into camps, labeling people, harming people, or getting rid of people or inciting people to run over others with dodge chargers then why do you support him? If you don’t support him then no worries she didn’t wish you or yours illEither way I don’t pray for anyone’s children to suffer the consequences of their parents actions. Mine, yours, or anyone’s. Not even Tiffany or Barron or the other ones. ( the other ones have their own issues to suffer from they don’t need his too ) Children should not suffer for the sins of their parents. They will though, but I don’t wish it or pray for it. I find it very telling that the original post by Elaine has people so up in arms but the crap Trump speaks isn’t a problem. I don't keep making partial quotes. One and only one time I took the entire quote from snowsilver's post and the only part I left out was "We know who some of the 25 who responded to the 4th of July Festivities poll are. They and the rest of you are typical White Supremacist lily-livered cowards." because I didn't think it pertained to her message. If you can tell me how that part above changes the meaning of "If you you find yourself or your children or your family on the chopping block, or in the gas chamber, or mown down by an asshole in a Dodge Charger, because you don’t meet the White Male Supremacist’ ideal and you haven’t spoken out, you have no one to blame but yourselves. I hope it is your children and not mine who suffer what you have wrought. And I will pray for that." I'll be open to hearing and being convinced that it changes the meaning. If you think Trump is doing nothing wrong where would said ‘chopping block’ come from?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 19:04:36 GMT
"If you you find yourself or your children or your family on the chopping block, or in the gas chamber, or mown down by an asshole in a Dodge Charger, because you don’t meet the White Male Supremacist’ ideal and you haven’t spoken out, you have no one to blame but yourselves. I hope it is your children and not mine who suffer what you have wrought. And I will pray for that." I didn't interpret it, I read the words and took them at face value. Praying for children to be harmed is not something I can be silent about. But according to you all, Trump is doing great and amazing things for this country, that you are all benefitting from. He’s’ not harming anyone. So I stand by my whut? You could have just saved yourself the bother, and not bothered with your first post. For some reason, I now get the feeling *this* is what you really joined to say. ETA or I could have just said “what hop2 said” if I’d read everything before I responded. 😅 Joined? Nah, she just didn't have the guts to post under her usual name. I find it strange that people have to do that. If they really thought their beliefs were the right ones and all that Trump was doing was good, they would have plenty of reasons to justify his actions. There again it's rather difficult to justify someone for being so transparently racist however one tries.
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Post by moretimeplease on Jul 17, 2019 19:11:32 GMT
Hop2 explained it. “If you are a Trump Supporter, then may you and yours suffer the consequences of his presidency.” If you are a Trump Supporter, then you probably aren’t worried - everything he’s doing to our country is hunky dory, A-OK, no harm no foul. If you think harm is going to come to children as a result of Trump’s presidency, then why would you support him? Whether or not *I* think harm will come to children under Trump doesn't change Elaine's praying for harm to come to children. Now you’re just reaching. You’re choosing to be offended for the sake of argument. You and yours SHOULD have to pay the consequences of your actions before causing suffering for others. That’s basically what she meant. But that was obvious to just about anyone who’s not a Trump supporter/apologist.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 19:13:24 GMT
Elaine, I truly hope you are going to come back and apologize for this post. Because you have now gone far further than any other Pea that I can remember in wishing horror on children of other Peas. Even Lauren only wished bad things for ONE Pea's child and she apologized and that Pea and she are now friends. But you have wished suffering on any the children of any Pea who doesn't see Trump the same way you do.... you state you are even praying for that! And I am stunned at the names of some of you who have "liked" this post. REALLY?? It is time that someone stood up and called you out for this type of rhetoric. This is beyond awful. I truly hope that some of your liberals will stand with me and call this the hate speech that it is! And just so you know.....there is no bat phone. Carly is not a member of the group that meets elsewhere. You won't believe it, but there is no hateful discussions there about any liberal on this list. There is just controlled discussion on world events. But no bat phone. The reason I saw this is because I (unlike most of the members of the conservative group you reference) never left this list. I saw your thread title, and opened it because it was so inflammatory. Again, liberals, do you support and pray for the suffering of the children of Americans who don't see things the way you do? If not, I hope at least some of you will have the courage to stand against this awful thread of Elaine's While we're going with the silence is acceptance thought, I can not stay silent about wishing harm on people's children. That is not right in any way, shape or form. It's hateful and is not a constructive way to express disagreement because it only serves to divide us even further. As someone said about something else in the same vein, good people need to condemn that kind of hateful rhetoric. Thank you for speaking out against it snowsilver & basketdiva . I'm so pleased to read what I have bolded because the children in those cages need everyone's voice to speak out about the horrendous conditions they are living in. The psychological damage they will suffer, at such a young age, will live with them for ever.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jul 17, 2019 19:15:48 GMT
Whether or not *I* think harm will come to children under Trump doesn't change Elaine's praying for harm to come to children. Unfortunately 100s of kids are being harmed everyday on the southern border, Florida and all over the country while NOT knowing where their parents and families are! IF you are not worried about dt and what he is doing and believe him, you have no reason to be concerned about the safety of your children. Elaine IS concerned and has decided to pray for the safety of her children, as do most of us because we do not trust him or his cronies to keep any children safe. Ultimately, not even his own grandchildren....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 19:36:17 GMT
I don't keep making partial quotes. One and only one time I took the entire quote from snowsilver's post and the only part I left out was "We know who some of the 25 who responded to the 4th of July Festivities poll are. They and the rest of you are typical White Supremacist lily-livered cowards." because I didn't think it pertained to her message. If you can tell me how that part above changes the meaning of "If you you find yourself or your children or your family on the chopping block, or in the gas chamber, or mown down by an asshole in a Dodge Charger, because you don’t meet the White Male Supremacist’ ideal and you haven’t spoken out, you have no one to blame but yourselves. I hope it is your children and not mine who suffer what you have wrought. And I will pray for that." I'll be open to hearing and being convinced that it changes the meaning. Hop2 explained it. “If you are a Trump Supporter, then may you and yours suffer the consequences of his presidency.” If you are a Trump Supporter, then you probably aren’t worried - everything he’s doing to our country is hunky dory, A-OK, no harm no foul. If you think harm is going to come to children as a result of Trump’s presidency, then why would you support him? You’re stuck on the phrase “suffer what you have wrought.” The meaning of this is ambiguous until you attach your own personal feelings about what has been “wrought” (ie Trumps presidency). If you think she’s wishing harm to children of Trump supporters, then you clearly think Trump is bad for the country. All that said, there’s nothing wrong with hoping people bear the brunt of their mistakes in their own lives before others have to suffer for them. You don’t want to pay your house payment? Fine, you and your kids will be homeless before me and my kids will, since I’m still paying my house payment. You’re stuck on the phrase “suffer what you have wrought.” The meaning of this is ambiguous until you attach your own personal feelings about what has been “wrought” (ie Trumps presidency). It's not at all ambiguous when attached to her own words "One of the peas here who continues to be the most outspoken in her support of Trump has severely disabled nieces. They will/would be amongst the first cleansed/killed under a White Supremacist regime." and " If you you find yourself or your children or your family on the chopping block, or in the gas chamber, or mown down by an asshole in a Dodge Charger, because you don’t meet the White Male Supremacist’ ideal and you haven’t spoken out, you have no one to blame but yourselves. I hope it is your children and not mine who suffer what you have wrought. And I will pray for that." I am not stuck on the phrase “suffer what you have wrought.” You, however, are stuck on making excuses for her praying for harm to come to children. When I went back to look for her explanation, she's already claimed doing it and apologized for it, so stop trying to rewrite what she said to pretend she didn't say it. The bottom line for me is she owned it and apologized for it and I'm moving on.
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Post by smalltowngirlie on Jul 17, 2019 19:42:55 GMT
I have been thinking about this thread since it started. I am more moderate but lean slightly right in my political standings. I did not vote for Trump and do not support what he is doing in any way. Some have asked why conservatives aren't shouting from the roof tops, well I don't think that is what will make a difference, when you yell others don't always listen.
What am I doing? I am having very honest and tough conversations with people I know. My DH likes Trump, not everything he is doing, but there are some policies he supports, but now how they are being executed if that makes sense. I have had a few conversations with my DH about what Trump does. I do not challenge him in his beliefs but will ask very specific questions about different situations from a moral standpoint. I plant the seed of taking a closer look at how his policies are being carried out. I can slowly see some of his attitudes changing, I do believe as Trump becomes more extreme people like my DH with someone talking to them about what is happening and not attacking them, may just change their minds and not vote for Trump in 2020.
For conservatives that don't like Trump, maybe Democrats can trust us a little that we know how to talk to people within our circle to make them really think about what is going on. You will not read about us in the media, you will not hear us, but our voice will be heard by those we can talk to. We will not reach everyone, but if we can reach enough people, then somethings may change.
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Post by elaine on Jul 17, 2019 19:50:14 GMT
@lovetherain , what does the word “if” mean to you? It is a small word, but very important when determining the meaning of a sentence/thought.
When you start a sentence/paragraph/thought with “if,” do you then expect what comes after the “if” clause to happen all of the time?
If you eat your broccoli, you will get ice cream. Does this mean that you give out ice cream regardless of whether the broccoli was consumed? No.
If my son’s teacher sexually abused my son, I would probably pray that he would get hit by a bus. Does this mean that I am currently praying every night for my son’s teacher to get hit by a bus? No.
If people support White Supremacy through their tacit or active support of Trump (his words and policies), I pray that if there is White Supremacist action - what we have seen actually happen historically at the hands of White Supremacists (gas chambers, dodge chargers, firing squads) - and someone’s kids have to suffer those actions, that it is the children of people who support White Supremacists and all the very active evil that means, rather than my kids. Does this mean I sit here and actively pray for bad things to befall children? No.
I’d much rather that White Supremacy was stamped out of existence, along with all its violence, and no one was ever sent to a gas chamber or run down by a car in the name of White Nationalism again.
Only someone hell bent on twisting things would morph that into my actively praying for harm to befall children.
But, I am certain that you and I have a history under one of your other identities and you are highly motivated into giving my words meaning they don’t possess.
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Post by pattyraindrops on Jul 17, 2019 20:30:38 GMT
pattyraindrops Thank you for taking the time to write your thoughtful response, I really appreciate it and it has given me some food for thought! When you wrote that this hate is often based on fear that resonated with me because I have noticed that often my anger is based on fear as well. I have a few questions and I hope they don’t come across as argumentative as that is definitely not my intent. In your experience, what are they afraid of? How does someone’s skin color scare them? Oh, it runs in so many directions. For most Trump supporters and conservatives it isn't really about skin color. It's just an easy way to, um...put a face to a culture or an idea that has them fearing. So if a person looks middle eastern then they fear bombs, planes, beheading, stoning etc, but also lesser things. That this will become the norm. That women will need to fear if Islam becomes widespread.
If they are Christian they may fear that they won't be able to live in peace as a Christian. That sacred places will be defiled in whatever way. I mean just here on this thread there is a whole lot of negativity attached to Christianity and yet I have seen many Christian denominations working together along with Jews, Muslims, atheists and others, to help refugees and asylum seekers. Full disclosure: I am Christian.
Like I said, it runs in so many directions and I think sometimes there is a lot going on inside of ourselves that we don't always recognize. I've been told by people that I'm pretty introspective (not trying to brag, just showing where I am coming from) and yet there is so much inside of me that surprises me sometimes. I have to believe that people who are not introspective don't understand everything inside of them either.
It doesn't really matter if those fears are probable or even possible. We all know there are many, many people who are afraid of flying on a plane. If you try to assure them with the facts of how unlikely it is to have a problem then it doesn't really help them does it?
I know for my flying frightened daughter it just makes her feel like people think she is stupid or a fraidy cat etc. It makes her not trust them because they don't get how her fear feels. But if on a plane I act normal beside her, have my hand available if she wants to hold it and let her know that with that last bump I was scared as well, then she trusts that I am sensitive toward her feelings and that gives her courage to keep flying with me.
Also, how do you feel someone saying that “Trump’s words were racist and I don’t agree with him or support what he said” would trigger this fear?I think it is an incredibly complicated weave of how it all works together, but I don't know that it triggers the fear so much as it triggers the defenses put up after the fear was there. Really it is the way those things were said. Katybee gave an excellent example above "I believe we need a much stronger immigration policy, but I DO NOT SUPPORT the separating of families." That same exact thing (though what "stronger" means could vary) could have been said by a liberal to show understanding of conservative fears and still stand up against racism. Maybe a few people were actually doing that, but instead, since Trump came on I have heard an awful lot of accusations that anyone who voted for Trump is a racist, misogynist etc. So those walls/defences were being triggered which makes it harder to learn about and discuss the fears. Please know that I am not trying to make the liberal side the bad guy here. Just trying to answer the question from the view of the conservative side since you asked. Most of my friends are conservative and I'm constantly trying to figure out if and how to respond when things they say mirror what I describe here.
If I haven't explained well please ask for clarification. If nothing else it is helping me understand much better. Just this thread helped me understand something I was not getting before. After the election I was shocked at what seemed like hate coming from the left as liberals were defriending people, etc. That conservative part of me put up defensive walls even though I had not even voted for Trump - the thought of doing so sickened me. But as I read this thread and thought back to what my charitable founder said about responding to others I started to remember the fear that liberals also expressed that day. It was so eye opening that so much fighting was happening because both sides were gutted with that awful fear. I can see how the continued effort you describe could make a lasting impression and impact on someone’s beliefs and I will take that message to heart, I just don’t understand how a statement like the one above could do the opposite. "Trump’s words were racist and I don’t agree with him or support what he said” Simplifying this a LOT: "I fear my children and grandchildren getting shot in a drive-by shooting by gangs. I hear about drug cartels south of the border. How do I know, by looking at someone if they are in a Mexican gang who has kidnapped a child or a family running from a gang? Until I can tell that I need to keep my family safe by closing off the border and the wall will help. Trump supports the wall. I will support someone who keeps me safer. You keep telling me I am just like Trump. If you call him a racist then you must think I am one as well. This means you don't understand my fears and just want to call me names. "
Like it or not "racist" is a charged label, with good reason. At this point because of all the history, if you label Trump a racist then you label those that support him. It has literally been done on this thread several times. If you are in an argument with your spouse or a friend and they call you a name how often does that help you calm down and try to understand the other person?
So don't make it about the label or supporting the person. Make it about the action and bridge it with an understanding of the other side.
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Post by hop2 on Jul 17, 2019 20:35:01 GMT
@lovetherain , what does the word “if” mean to you? It is a small word, but very important when determining the meaning of a sentence/thought. When you start a sentence/paragraph/thought with “if,” do you then expect what comes after the “if” clause to happen all of the time? If you eat your broccoli, you will get ice cream. Does this mean that you give out ice cream regardless of whether the broccoli was consumed? No. If my son’s teacher sexually abused my son, I would probably pray that he would get hit by a bus. Does this mean that I am currently praying every night for my son’s teacher to get hit by a bus? No. If people support White Supremacy through their tacit or active support of Trump (his words and policies), I pray that if there is White Supremacist action - what we have seen actually happen historically at the hands of White Supremacists (gas chambers, dodge chargers, firing squads) - and someone’s kids have to suffer those actions, that it is the children of people who support White Supremacists and all the very active evil that means, rather than my kids. Does this mean I sit here and actively pray for bad things to befall children? No. I’d much rather that White Supremacy was stamped out of existence, along with all its violence, and no one was ever sent to a gas chamber or run down by a car in the name of White Nationalism again. Only someone hell bent on twisting things would morph that into my actively praying for harm to befall children. But, I am certain that you and I have a history under one of your other identities and you are highly motivated into giving my words meaning they don’t possess. That’s where I’m going to disagree with you there. I hope no children suffer from the ignorance & stupidity of their parents actions. Not to start a theological discussion. It’s just something I really don’t believe in. One of the reasons I question my faith on a regular basis. Each child is innocent - at least until they knowingly take up the same actions as their parents. The same way the children at the border are not responsible for the adults actions that has brought them there. The children are the innocents caught in a horror not if their own making and whatever their parents did or did not do I can’t condone holding them accountable for it by making them suffer. I do know that children are & will be affected by the actions of their parents thats just how things happen. But specifically judging children on their parents actions is not acceptable to me. Holding responsible is abhorrent, holding them captive because an adult brought them here is unacceptable. Same grace is extended to Trump supporters children. I honestly fear some of them have it tough enough already trying to be what their parents expect them to be. No need to rain more horror upon them until they too pick up the same actions
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Jul 17, 2019 20:47:04 GMT
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Post by katiescarlett on Jul 17, 2019 20:50:32 GMT
I agree! I hope you will continue to participate in these threads pattyraindrops!
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jul 17, 2019 21:13:56 GMT
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Post by elaine on Jul 17, 2019 21:25:13 GMT
@lovetherain , what does the word “if” mean to you? It is a small word, but very important when determining the meaning of a sentence/thought. When you start a sentence/paragraph/thought with “if,” do you then expect what comes after the “if” clause to happen all of the time? If you eat your broccoli, you will get ice cream. Does this mean that you give out ice cream regardless of whether the broccoli was consumed? No. If my son’s teacher sexually abused my son, I would probably pray that he would get hit by a bus. Does this mean that I am currently praying every night for my son’s teacher to get hit by a bus? No. If people support White Supremacy through their tacit or active support of Trump (his words and policies), I pray that if there is White Supremacist action - what we have seen actually happen historically at the hands of White Supremacists (gas chambers, dodge chargers, firing squads) - and someone’s kids have to suffer those actions, that it is the children of people who support White Supremacists and all the very active evil that means, rather than my kids. Does this mean I sit here and actively pray for bad things to befall children? No. I’d much rather that White Supremacy was stamped out of existence, along with all its violence, and no one was ever sent to a gas chamber or run down by a car in the name of White Nationalism again. Only someone hell bent on twisting things would morph that into my actively praying for harm to befall children. But, I am certain that you and I have a history under one of your other identities and you are highly motivated into giving my words meaning they don’t possess. That’s where I’m going to disagree with you there. I hope no children suffer from the ignorance & stupidity of their parents actions. Not to start a theological discussion. It’s just something I really don’t believe in. One of the reasons I question my faith on a regular basis. Each child is innocent - at least until they knowingly take up the same actions as their parents. The same way the children at the border are not responsible for the adults actions that has brought them there. The children are the innocents caught in a horror not if their own making and whatever their parents did or did not do I can’t condone holding them accountable for it by making them suffer. I do know that children are & will be affected by the actions of their parents thats just how things happen. But specifically judging children on their parents actions is not acceptable to me. Holding responsible is abhorrent, holding them captive because an adult brought them here is unacceptable. Same grace is extended to Trump supporters children. I honestly fear some of them have it tough enough already trying to be what their parents expect them to be. No need to rain more horror upon them until they too pick up the same actions I hope that they don’t either. I agree with you. They shouldn’t suffer their parents’ actions. I am not sitting here praying for harm to befall them. And, being 100% honest, if it came down to my kids vs. the kids of those wanting to hurt them, I would pray that my kids stayed safe. It is true that it makes me less ethical/moral than some/many. I own that moral shortcoming.
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Post by elaine on Jul 17, 2019 21:32:01 GMT
pattyraindrops Thank you for taking the time to write your thoughtful response, I really appreciate it and it has given me some food for thought! When you wrote that this hate is often based on fear that resonated with me because I have noticed that often my anger is based on fear as well. I have a few questions and I hope they don’t come across as argumentative as that is definitely not my intent. In your experience, what are they afraid of? How does someone’s skin color scare them? Oh, it runs in so many directions. For most Trump supporters and conservatives it isn't really about skin color. It's just an easy way to, um...put a face to a culture or an idea that has them fearing. So if a person looks middle eastern then they fear bombs, planes, beheading, stoning etc, but also lesser things. That this will become the norm. That women will need to fear if Islam becomes widespread.
If they are Christian they may fear that they won't be able to live in peace as a Christian. That sacred places will be defiled in whatever way. I mean just here on this thread there is a whole lot of negativity attached to Christianity and yet I have seen many Christian denominations working together along with Jews, Muslims, atheists and others, to help refugees and asylum seekers. Full disclosure: I am Christian.
Like I said, it runs in so many directions and I think sometimes there is a lot going on inside of ourselves that we don't always recognize. I've been told by people that I'm pretty introspective (not trying to brag, just showing where I am coming from) and yet there is so much inside of me that surprises me sometimes. I have to believe that people who are not introspective don't understand everything inside of them either.
It doesn't really matter if those fears are probable or even possible. We all know there are many, many people who are afraid of flying on a plane. If you try to assure them with the facts of how unlikely it is to have a problem then it doesn't really help them does it?
I know for my flying frightened daughter it just makes her feel like people think she is stupid or a fraidy cat etc. It makes her not trust them because they don't get how her fear feels. But if on a plane I act normal beside her, have my hand available if she wants to hold it and let her know that with that last bump I was scared as well, then she trusts that I am sensitive toward her feelings and that gives her courage to keep flying with me.
Also, how do you feel someone saying that “Trump’s words were racist and I don’t agree with him or support what he said” would trigger this fear?I think it is an incredibly complicated weave of how it all works together, but I don't know that it triggers the fear so much as it triggers the defenses put up after the fear was there. Really it is the way those things were said. Katybee gave an excellent example above "I believe we need a much stronger immigration policy, but I DO NOT SUPPORT the separating of families." That same exact thing (though what "stronger" means could vary) could have been said by a liberal to show understanding of conservative fears and still stand up against racism. Maybe a few people were actually doing that, but instead, since Trump came on I have heard an awful lot of accusations that anyone who voted for Trump is a racist, misogynist etc. So those walls/defences were being triggered which makes it harder to learn about and discuss the fears. Please know that I am not trying to make the liberal side the bad guy here. Just trying to answer the question from the view of the conservative side since you asked. Most of my friends are conservative and I'm constantly trying to figure out if and how to respond when things they say mirror what I describe here.
If I haven't explained well please ask for clarification. If nothing else it is helping me understand much better. Just this thread helped me understand something I was not getting before. After the election I was shocked at what seemed like hate coming from the left as liberals were defriending people, etc. That conservative part of me put up defensive walls even though I had not even voted for Trump - the thought of doing so sickened me. But as I read this thread and thought back to what my charitable founder said about responding to others I started to remember the fear that liberals also expressed that day. It was so eye opening that so much fighting was happening because both sides were gutted with that awful fear. I can see how the continued effort you describe could make a lasting impression and impact on someone’s beliefs and I will take that message to heart, I just don’t understand how a statement like the one above could do the opposite. "Trump’s words were racist and I don’t agree with him or support what he said” Simplifying this a LOT: "I fear my children and grandchildren getting shot in a drive-by shooting by gangs. I hear about drug cartels south of the border. How do I know, by looking at someone if they are in a Mexican gang who has kidnapped a child or a family running from a gang? Until I can tell that I need to keep my family safe by closing off the border and the wall will help. Trump supports the wall. I will support someone who keeps me safer. You keep telling me I am just like Trump. If you call him a racist then you must think I am one as well. This means you don't understand my fears and just want to call me names. "
Like it or not "racist" is a charged label, with good reason. At this point because of all the history, if you label Trump a racist then you label those that support him. It has literally been done on this thread several times. If you are in an argument with your spouse or a friend and they call you a name how often does that help you calm down and try to understand the other person?
So don't make it about the label or supporting the person. Make it about the action and bridge it with an understanding of the other side. Thank you very much for your thoughtful response. I appreciate that you took the time and thought to answer so thoroughly. I totally own that I am motivated by fear. I never, in a million years, thought that Neo-Nazis would March 1 hour from my house and my kids, let alone have a President who deems them “fine people.” And then someone is emboldened to shoot up a synagogue in Pittsburgh. And our local Jewish Community Center has been vandalized and painted in swastikas. My family and I are definitely less safe from white Americans than we were before Trump came into office. I don’t know how I can build a bridge with others around that. What does one do when the “enemy”/those who wish me and mine harm are the very people the President supports and empowers? I am sincerely open to ideas.
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Post by flanz on Jul 17, 2019 21:46:45 GMT
Why do Trump supporters hold everyone to a higher standard than Trump himself? I see this all the time on social media and on this board when I check in. They are very thin skinned to any criticism of him. The issue of separating and incarcerating children at the border has the potential for me to lose friendships over and frankly, at this point of my life, I don't care. If you support this, then we can't have a friendship, our values are too different and I'll never think of you the same way again. I know if sounds harsh, but I get to stand up for my values and principles too. I see that someone up thread posted a screen shot of how much those private contractors are getting per immigrant so as far as that argument that Trump supporters want to use "If you like illegals that much, why don't you take some in?", I will say Sure, if the federal government will give me what they are giving the private contractor they are using, I'll sign up for a single parent and their child or children. We don't have a large house, but we have a clean, dry, unfinished basement that I think this family and mine could make into a nice place for them to stay until they get their feet on the ground. And you know what? I guarantee you that this family, thankful for what they've been given will be productive citizens when given a chance. Let's do some numbers $775 per person, so let's say three people = $2325.00 a day which in turn would give us $69,750 a month. Where do I sign up? And I bet that out of that $69,750 a month, you will manage to supply soap, toothpaste and running water. These freakin’ people! Why are Republican cronies making this kind of big money on prisons? I want ALL for-profit prisons AND “detention camps” closed down. No one should be profiting off this kind of human misery. Amen!!!!
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Post by flanz on Jul 17, 2019 21:55:06 GMT
I have been thinking about this thread since it started. I am more moderate but lean slightly right in my political standings. I did not vote for Trump and do not support what he is doing in any way. Some have asked why conservatives aren't shouting from the roof tops, well I don't think that is what will make a difference, when you yell others don't always listen. What am I doing? I am having very honest and tough conversations with people I know. My DH likes Trump, not everything he is doing, but there are some policies he supports, but now how they are being executed if that makes sense. I have had a few conversations with my DH about what Trump does. I do not challenge him in his beliefs but will ask very specific questions about different situations from a moral standpoint. I plant the seed of taking a closer look at how his policies are being carried out. I can slowly see some of his attitudes changing, I do believe as Trump becomes more extreme people like my DH with someone talking to them about what is happening and not attacking them, may just change their minds and not vote for Trump in 2020. For conservatives that don't like Trump, maybe Democrats can trust us a little that we know how to talk to people within our circle to make them really think about what is going on. You will not read about us in the media, you will not hear us, but our voice will be heard by those we can talk to. We will not reach everyone, but if we can reach enough people, then somethings may change. THANK YOU!!!
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Post by Merge on Jul 17, 2019 22:06:09 GMT
pattyraindrops Thank you for taking the time to write your thoughtful response, I really appreciate it and it has given me some food for thought! When you wrote that this hate is often based on fear that resonated with me because I have noticed that often my anger is based on fear as well. I have a few questions and I hope they don’t come across as argumentative as that is definitely not my intent. In your experience, what are they afraid of? How does someone’s skin color scare them? Oh, it runs in so many directions. For most Trump supporters and conservatives it isn't really about skin color. It's just an easy way to, um...put a face to a culture or an idea that has them fearing. So if a person looks middle eastern then they fear bombs, planes, beheading, stoning etc, but also lesser things. That this will become the norm. That women will need to fear if Islam becomes widespread.
If they are Christian they may fear that they won't be able to live in peace as a Christian. That sacred places will be defiled in whatever way. I mean just here on this thread there is a whole lot of negativity attached to Christianity and yet I have seen many Christian denominations working together along with Jews, Muslims, atheists and others, to help refugees and asylum seekers. Full disclosure: I am Christian.
Like I said, it runs in so many directions and I think sometimes there is a lot going on inside of ourselves that we don't always recognize. I've been told by people that I'm pretty introspective (not trying to brag, just showing where I am coming from) and yet there is so much inside of me that surprises me sometimes. I have to believe that people who are not introspective don't understand everything inside of them either.
It doesn't really matter if those fears are probable or even possible. We all know there are many, many people who are afraid of flying on a plane. If you try to assure them with the facts of how unlikely it is to have a problem then it doesn't really help them does it?
I know for my flying frightened daughter it just makes her feel like people think she is stupid or a fraidy cat etc. It makes her not trust them because they don't get how her fear feels. But if on a plane I act normal beside her, have my hand available if she wants to hold it and let her know that with that last bump I was scared as well, then she trusts that I am sensitive toward her feelings and that gives her courage to keep flying with me.
Also, how do you feel someone saying that “Trump’s words were racist and I don’t agree with him or support what he said” would trigger this fear?I think it is an incredibly complicated weave of how it all works together, but I don't know that it triggers the fear so much as it triggers the defenses put up after the fear was there. Really it is the way those things were said. Katybee gave an excellent example above "I believe we need a much stronger immigration policy, but I DO NOT SUPPORT the separating of families." That same exact thing (though what "stronger" means could vary) could have been said by a liberal to show understanding of conservative fears and still stand up against racism. Maybe a few people were actually doing that, but instead, since Trump came on I have heard an awful lot of accusations that anyone who voted for Trump is a racist, misogynist etc. So those walls/defences were being triggered which makes it harder to learn about and discuss the fears. Please know that I am not trying to make the liberal side the bad guy here. Just trying to answer the question from the view of the conservative side since you asked. Most of my friends are conservative and I'm constantly trying to figure out if and how to respond when things they say mirror what I describe here.
If I haven't explained well please ask for clarification. If nothing else it is helping me understand much better. Just this thread helped me understand something I was not getting before. After the election I was shocked at what seemed like hate coming from the left as liberals were defriending people, etc. That conservative part of me put up defensive walls even though I had not even voted for Trump - the thought of doing so sickened me. But as I read this thread and thought back to what my charitable founder said about responding to others I started to remember the fear that liberals also expressed that day. It was so eye opening that so much fighting was happening because both sides were gutted with that awful fear. I can see how the continued effort you describe could make a lasting impression and impact on someone’s beliefs and I will take that message to heart, I just don’t understand how a statement like the one above could do the opposite. "Trump’s words were racist and I don’t agree with him or support what he said” Simplifying this a LOT: "I fear my children and grandchildren getting shot in a drive-by shooting by gangs. I hear about drug cartels south of the border. How do I know, by looking at someone if they are in a Mexican gang who has kidnapped a child or a family running from a gang? Until I can tell that I need to keep my family safe by closing off the border and the wall will help. Trump supports the wall. I will support someone who keeps me safer. You keep telling me I am just like Trump. If you call him a racist then you must think I am one as well. This means you don't understand my fears and just want to call me names. "
Like it or not "racist" is a charged label, with good reason. At this point because of all the history, if you label Trump a racist then you label those that support him. It has literally been done on this thread several times. If you are in an argument with your spouse or a friend and they call you a name how often does that help you calm down and try to understand the other person?
So don't make it about the label or supporting the person. Make it about the action and bridge it with an understanding of the other side. At what point, though, do we hold people responsible for examining how rational their fears are? Saying (and I realize this was a theoretical example in your post, but I hear it here all the time) that since we can’t tell Mexican gang members from refugees means we should exclude all brown-skinned people is not a rational response to fear. I think we need to call people out when their fears are based on bad information or skewed logic, especially when they’re voting or making policy based on those fears. The very same people who are afraid of every brown-skinned person who crosses the border take great umbrage at the idea that there should be any restriction on gun ownership because of mass shootings by disaffected white men. Why is it wrong to ask people to examine their beliefs? Right now, the GOP and Trump are stoking the fears people have, magnifying them and validating them. The whole GOP platform is based on fear and has been for as long as I can remember. Muslims are terrorists. Poor, black people are lazy welfare takers who want your hard-earned money. Mexicans and Central Americans are coming here to take your jobs, rape your wives and shoot your children. Obama is a Kenyan Muslim who wants to take your guns and all your money. Women are heartless baby killers who cannot be trusted to make ethical decisions about their own bodies. Gay people are going to turn your children gay simply by existing, and teachers who teach empathy and tolerance are indoctrinating your children with liberal socialist ideas. Why do we have to try to understand or empathize with fears that have no basis in logic or reason? Why is it our job to constantly self-evaluate in our dealings with others when conservatives refuse to do the same? A friend recently said to me, after observing a Facebook interaction I had with an acquaintance, “Being intellectually correct means nothing these days. People only care about what they feel, not about what makes sense.” I guess I don’t know what to do with that. How someone “feels” about immigrants or abortion or whatever should, to me, have some basis in logic and facts, or that feeling should be discounted.
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Post by pattyraindrops on Jul 17, 2019 23:59:18 GMT
Thank you very much for your thoughtful response. I appreciate that you took the time and thought to answer so thoroughly. I totally own that I am motivated by fear. I never, in a million years, thought that Neo-Nazis would March 1 hour from my house and my kids, let alone have a President who deems them “fine people.” And then someone is emboldened to shoot up a synagogue in Pittsburgh. And our local Jewish Community Center has been vandalized and painted in swastikas. My family and I are definitely less safe from white Americans than we were before Trump came into office. I don’t know how I can build a bridge with others around that. What does one do when the “enemy”/those who wish me and mine harm are the very people the President supports and empowers? I am sincerely open to ideas. I can somewhat understand, but acknowledge it will never be quite the same. Last November and December as I was dropping off backpacks to bus stations and churches we had a lot of protesters, some were even waving guns around. We found out that some of the protesters were taking pictures of people and their cars/license plates and then posting them on the internet so that others could target them. I had never hesitated to bring my children with me till it got so bad. I have loved working along side of them as we worked in the warehouse or set up apartments or handed snacks to children at the bus station. Suddenly I had to be much more aware of the safety of my children. So I stopped bringing them to the bus station. My husband is 6'6" and broad and he intimidates a lot of people with his size, but he is a big softy most of the time. We find little man syndrome occurring with hims sometimes - guys that are small will pick him out and get aggressive for no reason at all. During this time though many of the protesters were getting right in the face of volunteers. If volunteers touched them in any manner they would get more aggressive and started to try to sue. Because of my husbands anxieties around people anyway and his desire to protect me we felt it would be best if he didn't accompany me because we knew he would be a target and that he wouldn't react well even though he has never hurt a single soul. Even harder though was the posting of cars and license plates on the internet. My next door neighbor has been very vocally supportive of Trump on facebook. IRL she has loved us and she has been so grateful for help we have given her over the years. After talking with my husband we felt that while we would feel calm around her as we didn't think she would hurt us, we couldn't trust friends of hers that didn't know us personally. We decided that we would only take my car to places where protesters might be and since there was only space in the garage at the time for one car it would always be my car in the garage hidden inside. And the thing that caught me the most was when there were 2 cars available the kids would always take DH's car and not mine because I never wanted them out alone when some recognized my car from the internet. I wish I could answer your question better. As I described above our family tries to observe more, be aware more and take precautions, but I acknowledge it isn't a great way to live. No one should have to feel fearful for their lives and the lives of their loved ones. Things have settled down here for awhile, but who knows when it will come again. As frustrating as it is, as scared as I might get I just keep having to ask myself and God what I should be doing. Usually it is the painstakingly slow steps that change hearts that I keep being guided towards while I keep doing what needs to be done to help the actual refugees and asylum seekers. Everyone once in awhile my heart says "you need to post something/stand up" on message boards, facebook, instagram, in person etc. and if I spend the time to word it as a bridge I see little things change. Just yesterday I saw someone like my facebook post about refugees that I never would have expected. Funny thing is that every single time that I don't calm myself first it doesn't work. I keep thinking I will learn, but it was just a few weeks ago I came home fuming from church when I let myself react instead of respond and the other person's defensive walls came slamming down. So I don't know Elaine. When you are faced with what you are dealing with it is REALLY tough. I can see why you are scared. Maybe look around the people of your life and see if there is just one person that you can start to try to understand fears better or get to know them and work on them first. Or one area. We are definitely never going to be able to change everyone, but if we can get enough of us working to understand each other then maybe the answers will come more easily. HUGS.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jul 18, 2019 0:13:45 GMT
Even harder though was the posting of cars and license plates on the internet. My next door neighbor has been very vocally supportive of Trump on facebook. IRL she has loved us and she has been so grateful for help we have given her over the years. After talking with my husband we felt that while we would feel calm around her as we didn't think she would hurt us, not even the asylum seekers we might host in our home we couldn't trust friends of hers that didn't know us personally. We decided that we would only take my car to places where protesters might be and since there was only space in the garage at the time for one car it would always be my car in the garage hidden inside. And the thing that caught me the most was when there were 2 cars available the kids would always take DH's car and not mind because I never wanted them out alone when some recognized my car from the internet. I wish I could answer your question better. As I described above our family tries to observe more, be aware more and take precautions, but I acknowledge it isn't a great way to live. No one should have to feel fearful for their lives and the lives of their loved ones. Things have settled down here for awhile, but who knows when it will come again. As frustrating as it is, as scared as I might get I just keep having to ask myself and God what I should be doing. Usually it is the painstakingly slow steps that change hearts that I keep being guided towards while I keep doing what needs to be done to help the actual refugees and asylum seekers. Everyone once in awhile my heart says "you need to post something/stand up" on message boards, facebook, instagram, in person etc. and if I spend the time to word it as a bridge I see little things change. Just yesterday I saw someone like my facebook post about refugees that I never would have expected. I am sorry! Sorry your family has also had to deal with that!
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Sept 29, 2024 5:29:52 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 0:46:55 GMT
I am tired of this excuse being tossed out when Republicans don’t want to speak out against the vile things being said and done by Trump and his party. Stand up and speak out publicly against racism anyway. Do the right thing, even if it is hard, even if people tell you it isn’t enough. Ignore those comments. At least you will know you have done the right thing. It is important. Even more so since people in your party are most likely to listen to what you have to say than listen to one of us. I'm not conservative. I'm squarely in the middle. I work with an organization which helps refugees and asylum seekers. I've found that standing up a declaring others and their actions as racist to be pretty ineffective. What I have seen is the anger stirred up and people automatically become stronger in their stances. When I first started with this organization our founder said something to a group of us that has stayed with me, "you will find people that when you talk about refugees will start in on how we shouldn't let terrorists in. Realize these people are scared and don't argue with them. Instead, ask what charitable organizations they are involved with or that they support and sincerely compliment the good things they do." That started a whole new way of thinking for me. Now, rather than fanning the flames I have found much more effective ways of change. One of the women I know is a very right wing Trump supporter. With all the people around her I have seen this huge, loving, caregiving self and I still wonder how is it that both sides can be in one person, but I saw things start to change as I first shared little things about refugee children playing - she loves children. Over months I started to share what refugees go through little by little. Rather than sharing who it was killing, raping, hurting others I shared that these things were happening to the refugees. Her heart softened more. Eventually, I could share that some of these refugees were Muslim. It was interesting to see how she could be ok with this and then the next day express concern about Muslims and vice versa. Internally you could see how her heart told her Muslims could be good people, but decades of being in a very vocal, extremely conservative family is not something that easily changes views overnight. She moved in December, but working with love little by little she even started to ask what she could do. Before she left she was making snack packs to put in asylum seeker backpacks that our organization gives out to those traveling across the states to loved ones. One of the things we are big on is educating the public. We are non political. We have found that if we share the plight of others, share good experiences, point no fingers and provide a way for everyone to help that hate and prejudice start to go away. Yesterday, I set up a refugee apartment with some volunteers. At the end of the day I was looking at my pictures because this year I am posting a picture of the day on Instagram and Facebook. My heart had been so heavy over political fighting everywhere. That is when I saw the picture of the bedroom for 3 African that had been setup. Usually we don't meet the family when they come in. They come several hours or days later. Occasionally we do though and it so filling to my soul to see children find their beds and excitedly open backpacks. Last night as I saw that picture I imagined the children coming in. And that's when I started thinking about the volunteers there. While we don't share politics within the organization a few of us have become good friends so I know their feelings. I realized in that one group we have both very liberal and very conservative leanings and I found hope that if we can work together in love maybe that can spread. I started this post sharing how conservatives felt fear. This thread is largely how liberals feel fear. I wish that we could see that fear is a lot of why people are lashing out on both sides. It's one of the reasons why accusations don't work. They just make people hold stronger. Yes, we definitely need to stand against the horrible atrocities happening in the world, many of which will never leave my mind. No, doing things the way I describe above will not be a quick fix and it will not be enough - people do need to speak up. But please, please, take care of how you speak up. If lash out and assign blame to everyone it just makes that fear grow stronger. Find ways instead that allow and help others to trust and change their hearts. This isn't about being nice or kind. It is about lasting change and yes, that won't come quickly or easily. Very wise words that I'll do my best to keep in mind when putting my two cents in. Thank you for your thoughts.
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 18, 2019 0:55:53 GMT
Whether or not *I* think harm will come to children under Trump doesn't change Elaine's praying for harm to come to children. Now you’re just reaching. You’re choosing to be offended for the sake of argument. You and yours SHOULD have to pay the consequences of your actions before causing suffering for others. That’s basically what she meant. But that was obvious to just about anyone who’s not a Trump supporter/apologist. Yep. She’s stuck on that phrase, even though it’s been explained repeatedly. Guess she will just have to be offended.🤷♀️
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jul 18, 2019 1:11:13 GMT
You know, as I’ve been sitting here thinking about this...
How do the conservatives reconcile that the government they support, with all their “conservative values” are harming children right now?
I don’t see any of them holding their team accountable, in fact it’s getting worse and more children have died because of this administration’s policy.
How do they reconcile what this administration is doing to gut the ACA with no plan whatsoever (of course trump lied that he had this big beautiful awesome plan in 2016 for healthcare, he had nothing) knowing that gutting the ACA is going to harm so many people?
How do they reconcile what the government they support is doing to our environment and ignoring climate change entirely—knowing that it’s going to cost lives?
These conservatives must think that they are safe, immune, special, chosen...
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Post by elaine on Jul 18, 2019 1:21:58 GMT
You know, as I’ve been sitting here thinking about this... How do the conservatives reconcile that the government they support, with all their “conservative values” are harming children right now? I don’t see any of them holding their team accountable, in fact it’s getting worse and more children have died because of this administration’s policy. How do they reconcile what this administration is doing to gut the ACA with no plan whatsoever (of course trump lied that he had this big beautiful awesome plan in 2016 for healthcare, he had nothing) knowing that gutting the ACA is going to harm so many people? How do they reconcile what the government they support is doing to our environment and ignoring climate change entirely—knowing that it’s going to cost lives? These conservatives must think that they are safe, immune, special, chosen... They will see and label it as Obama/Hillary/Pelosi/AOC’s fault. Have you heard the chant from tonight’s Trump rally? They are chanting “Send Her Back!” en masse about Congressperson Omar. Nothing racist, Islamophobic, or divisive about that...
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