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Post by snowsilver on Oct 22, 2020 20:35:27 GMT
I'm going to post the entire article from the Daily Beast here (I'll put a link at the end if I can remember how to do that). I find this sobering and it leaves me wondering if anything really can be done to stop this or if we just have to wait and let it run its course. Italy Did Everything Right to Stop a Second Wave of the Coronavirus. So What Went Wrong?
UNSTOPPABLE J ust one month ago, Italy was the shining example of how masks and aggressive testing work to stave off a second COVID wave. Why have things gone so terribly wrong?ROME—If you turn on the news in Italy right now, you might be forgiven for thinking you are getting reruns from March. Pictures of COVID-only units, field hospitals being erected, exhausted medics, and coffins are again dominating headlines as Italy comes to grips with a deadly second wave of COVID-19. On Wednesday, the death toll topped 125 in a 24-hour period for the first time since May when this country was still under a draconian lockdown and seen as a harbinger of what was to come. What's particularly troubling about the return of COVID in Italy is that the country has done everything experts like Dr. Anthony Fauci have been advising. Face masks in public places have been compulsory for months, social distancing is strongly enforced, nightclubs have never reopened, and sporting arenas are at less than a third of capacity. Children who are back at school are regularly tested and strictly social-distanced, and yet, the second wave seems completely unstoppable. While ruling out another full lockdown, Italian health officials are instead urging people to limit their own movements, even as concern grows that by keeping them at their homes, they are inadvertently encouraging private parties where the spread seems to be the worst at the moment. Italy’s health ministry released data this week showing that 80.3 percent of the new infections “occur at home” while only 4.2 percent come from recreational activities and schools. On Wednesday, Italy logged 15,199 new infections—nearly three times as many as the worst day of the pandemic last March and a per capita rate that would be the equivalent of 90,000 new cases in a single day in the U.S., a level that has not yet been reached. And it is only getting worse. “Certain metropolitan areas like Milan, Naples, and Rome are already out of control in terms of containing the pandemic,” Walter Ricciardi, an infectious-diseases specialist who advises the Italian government and holds the same position in Italy as Fauci does in the U.S., said at a conference Wednesday. “Their numbers are too high to be contained by the traditional method of tracing and testing. And as previous epidemics teach us, when you can’t contain you have to mitigate, namely you have to block movement.” To some degree, the increase in cases is also tied to Italy’s aggressive testing scheme, which has paved the way for easy, fast diagnostics at all airports and in private clinics in addition to state-run drive-in facilities. Private technicians also make house calls for around $75 to conduct tests in the privacy of homes, which has also contributed to the higher number of cases. On Wednesday, nearly 180,000 tests were reported, which is a record here for a 24-hour period. But authorities are very concerned still that despite all the best efforts to contain the spread, it simply cannot be stopped. The government’s experts insist that the rate of contagion among schoolchildren is not the driving factor; but young people who feel confident they won’t get very sick and insist on gathering socially may be. Now major cities like Milan, Rome, and Naples have evening curfews to try to stop young people from gathering socially, which seems to be contributing to the spread. Ricciardi said most of the contagion that happens within multigenerational homes comes from young people bringing it in. Italy is by no means alone in its battle against the European second wave of the pandemic. France, Spain, and the Czech Republic have all broken records in new cases and introduced measures to mitigate the spread. The United Kingdom also has record numbers of new infections in a single day, and Ireland has completely locked down. Germany—which largely avoided major problems during the first European wave—has reported shocking numbers of new infections, which topped 10,000 in a single day Wednesday. Authorities there have also blamed young people going out or groups meeting privately for the spread. Lothar Wieler, president of its disease-control center, told the DW network that people going to work is not the problem. “We don’t see so many outbreaks at workplaces or in public transportation, but it’s mostly coming together in privacy, in parties, and also in services and weddings,” he said. “We shouldn’t have too many of these events.” On Wednesday, a very concerned Italian Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte addressed the Italian Senate, assuring them that there will not be a repeat of the full lockdown, which crippled the economy and all but destroyed the tourism sector. While urging ordinary citizens to limit unnecessary travel, he stopped short of mandating any limits to movement—for now. “We can’t use the same strategy to fight the second wave as we did in spring,” he said. “Now we’re in a different situation that we were in in March—back then we didn’t have the means to diagnose, now we are more prepared thanks to the hard work and sacrifices of all.” But for many, the sacrifices that helped during the first round seem lost now, as though they had been made in vain. link
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Post by sam9 on Oct 22, 2020 20:39:23 GMT
I too am wondering, at this point, if it is just unstoppable.
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ashley
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,400
Jun 17, 2016 12:36:53 GMT
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Post by ashley on Oct 22, 2020 20:40:26 GMT
Yes, something can be done — if people were willing to not gather, as recommended.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 22, 2020 20:45:36 GMT
I think they answered the question of what needs to be done—people need to stop gathering. You can even see that in the responses to the Thanksgiving thread. “It is just going to be immediate family (which they then lost as sisters, brothers, parents, etc) or “only about half the people we normally have.” People are no longer isolating themselves from others so of course the virus is going to get worse. I don’t see that as taking all measures possible to stop the virus.
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Post by sam9 on Oct 22, 2020 20:45:39 GMT
Yes, something can be done — if people were willing to not gather, as recommended. Agreed. But it feels as though that’s never going to happen. We aren’t allowed anyone in our homes or yards here, all our restaurants are closed except for takeout, and our daily numbers continue to rise. Looking at the threads on this board about the upcoming holidays, it seems as though no one thinks the rules apply to them.
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Post by sam9 on Oct 22, 2020 20:46:26 GMT
I think they answered the question of what needs to be done—people need to stop gathering. You can even see that in the responses to the Thanksgiving thread. “It is just going to be immediate family (which they then lost as sisters, brothers, parents, etc) or “only about half the people we normally have.” People are no longer isolating themselves from others so of course the virus is going to get worse. I don’t see that as taking all measures possible to stop the virus. We were posting at the same time. 😊
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ashley
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,400
Jun 17, 2016 12:36:53 GMT
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Post by ashley on Oct 22, 2020 20:48:30 GMT
Yes, something can be done — if people were willing to not gather, as recommended. Agreed. But it feels as though that’s never going to happen. We aren’t allowed anyone in our homes or yards here, all our restaurants are closed except for takeout, and our daily numbers continue to rise. Looking at the threads on this board about the upcoming holidays, it seems as though no one thinks the rules apply to them. Exactly.
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Post by hop2 on Oct 22, 2020 20:52:05 GMT
Well, they clearly haven’t done ‘everything right’ Or they wouldn’t be doing ‘that’ badly.
They are countries that have very low numbers and they test quite a bit as well so it’s not a case if not testing lowering the number of cases. S Korea seems to be handling it way better than we are. Small spike back in August about 1/3 their original spike but very low numbers again now.
So clearly ‘something’ can be done it is a matter if people/societies are willing to do it.
We clearly are not
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peabay
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,891
Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on Oct 22, 2020 20:58:51 GMT
But authorities are very concerned still that despite all the best efforts to contain the spread, it simply cannot be stopped. The government’s experts insist that the rate of contagion among schoolchildren is not the driving factor; but young people who feel confident they won’t get very sick and insist on gathering socially may be It's stoppable if people are willing to make sacrifices.
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nogfz
Full Member
Posts: 219
Aug 3, 2019 21:32:31 GMT
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Post by nogfz on Oct 22, 2020 21:02:14 GMT
Why Sweden Is Doing Better With Coronavirus Pandemic Than Other CountriesNoteable excerpts: Unlike other countries, Sweden left its pandemic strategy up to public health officials rather than politicians. Sweden's chief epidemiologist says the country looks at coronavirus as a long-term problem, not something that can be wiped out “You can’t open and close schools. That is going to be a disaster. And you probably can’t open and close restaurants and stuff like that either too many times. Once or twice, yes, but then people will get very tired and businesses will probably suffer more than if you close them down completely,” he* said. (Anders Tignell, Sweden’s top epidemiologist)
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Post by myshelly on Oct 22, 2020 21:02:55 GMT
Yes, something can be done — if people were willing to not gather, as recommended. Agreed. But it feels as though that’s never going to happen. We aren’t allowed anyone in our homes or yards here, all our restaurants are closed except for takeout, and our daily numbers continue to rise. Looking at the threads on this board about the upcoming holidays, it seems as though no one thinks the rules apply to them. I’m one of the people who said I’m just doing my normal thing in that thread. What you need to understand is that it’s not against any rules here. Just because something is against the rules where you are, doesn’t mean it’s against the rules everywhere. Those rules literally don’t apply to me 🤷🏻♀️
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Post by Really Red on Oct 22, 2020 21:04:23 GMT
Yes, something can be done — if people were willing to not gather, as recommended. 100%! This is exactly it. My daughter lives in Europe and even though people do everything right, they still gather together. Europeans are a gathering type of people. Someone is always at someone else's home and there are friends gathering. We live further apart here (and yet we still do it), but Europeans don't stop. The hugging/kissing is incessant; it just is. p.s. Also, Sweden is NOT doing better. Many, many articles show the problems they have had and continue to have.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Oct 22, 2020 21:08:34 GMT
Agreed. But it feels as though that’s never going to happen. We aren’t allowed anyone in our homes or yards here, all our restaurants are closed except for takeout, and our daily numbers continue to rise. Looking at the threads on this board about the upcoming holidays, it seems as though no one thinks the rules apply to them. I’m one of the people who said I’m just doing my normal thing in that thread. What you need to understand is that it’s not against any rules here. Just because something is against the rules where you are, doesn’t mean it’s against the rules everywhere. Those rules literally don’t apply to me 🤷🏻♀️ Actually I think and I may be wrong, she was talking about the rules of the virus, not actual laws and policies. The virus here is setting forth the rules that need to be followed to stop the spread. And then there are dumbasses who think that that *those* rules don't apply to them and only manmade rules do (but there are some who don't even follow those) and that's why the virus keeps killing people.
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Post by sam9 on Oct 22, 2020 21:09:18 GMT
Why Sweden Is Doing Better With Coronavirus Pandemic Than Other CountriesNoteable excerpts: Unlike other countries, Sweden left its pandemic strategy up to public health officials rather than politicians. Sweden's chief epidemiologist says the country looks at coronavirus as a long-term problem, not something that can be wiped out “You can’t open and close schools. That is going to be a disaster. And you probably can’t open and close restaurants and stuff like that either too many times. Once or twice, yes, but then people will get very tired and businesses will probably suffer more than if you close them down completely,” he* said. (Anders Tignell, Sweden’s top epidemiologist) This article is from a month ago. Their death rate is terrible.
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Post by myshelly on Oct 22, 2020 21:09:44 GMT
I’m one of the people who said I’m just doing my normal thing in that thread. What you need to understand is that it’s not against any rules here. Just because something is against the rules where you are, doesn’t mean it’s against the rules everywhere. Those rules literally don’t apply to me 🤷🏻♀️ Actually I think and I may be wrong, she was talking about the rules of the virus, not actual laws and policies. The virus here is setting forth the rules that need to be followed to stop the spread. And then there are dumbasses who think that that *those* rules don't apply to them and only manmade rules do (but there are some who don't even follow those) and that's why the virus keeps killing people. That is a bizarre interpretation.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Oct 22, 2020 21:11:09 GMT
Actually I think and I may be wrong, she was talking about the rules of the virus, not actual laws and policies. The virus here is setting forth the rules that need to be followed to stop the spread. And then there are dumbasses who think that that *those* rules don't apply to them and only manmade rules do (but there are some who don't even follow those) and that's why the virus keeps killing people. That is a bizarre interpretation. Why does it not surprise me you'd have trouble wrapping your brain around it? The virus is in charge here. It just is.
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nogfz
Full Member
Posts: 219
Aug 3, 2019 21:32:31 GMT
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Post by nogfz on Oct 22, 2020 21:14:53 GMT
Why Sweden Is Doing Better With Coronavirus Pandemic Than Other CountriesNoteable excerpts: Unlike other countries, Sweden left its pandemic strategy up to public health officials rather than politicians. Sweden's chief epidemiologist says the country looks at coronavirus as a long-term problem, not something that can be wiped out “You can’t open and close schools. That is going to be a disaster. And you probably can’t open and close restaurants and stuff like that either too many times. Once or twice, yes, but then people will get very tired and businesses will probably suffer more than if you close them down completely,” he* said. (Anders Tignell, Sweden’s top epidemiologist) This article is from a month ago. Their death rate is terrible. Their daily deaths since August has been in single digits. Worldometer/Corona/Sweden
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ashley
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,400
Jun 17, 2016 12:36:53 GMT
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Post by ashley on Oct 22, 2020 21:14:54 GMT
Agreed. But it feels as though that’s never going to happen. We aren’t allowed anyone in our homes or yards here, all our restaurants are closed except for takeout, and our daily numbers continue to rise. Looking at the threads on this board about the upcoming holidays, it seems as though no one thinks the rules apply to them. I’m one of the people who said I’m just doing my normal thing in that thread. What you need to understand is that it’s not against any rules here. Just because something is against the rules where you are, doesn’t mean it’s against the rules everywhere. Those rules literally don’t apply to me 🤷🏻♀️ And just because it’s not against “the rules” doesn’t mean it’s safe and responsible.
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ashley
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,400
Jun 17, 2016 12:36:53 GMT
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Post by ashley on Oct 22, 2020 21:16:57 GMT
This article is from a month ago. Their death rate is terrible. Their daily deaths since August has been in single digits. Sweden ranks 15th highest in the world for deaths per capita due to Covid.
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Post by myshelly on Oct 22, 2020 21:16:59 GMT
I’m one of the people who said I’m just doing my normal thing in that thread. What you need to understand is that it’s not against any rules here. Just because something is against the rules where you are, doesn’t mean it’s against the rules everywhere. Those rules literally don’t apply to me 🤷🏻♀️ And just because it’s not against “the rules” doesn’t mean it’s safe and responsible. We have a different assessment of the risks and that’s ok. I have to weigh our mental health against our Covid risk and make the decision that’s right for my family. Don’t particularly care what anyone else thinks of that.
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breetheflea
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,381
Location: PNW
Jul 20, 2014 21:57:23 GMT
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Post by breetheflea on Oct 22, 2020 21:17:11 GMT
In about four weeks after all the "it's just a few close friends" Halloween parties and "it's outside so it's safe trick-or-treating", the numbers are going to go off the charts...
The "the rules only apply to everyone else" attitude makes me want to move to mountain top and become a hermit.
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ashley
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,400
Jun 17, 2016 12:36:53 GMT
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Post by ashley on Oct 22, 2020 21:17:44 GMT
And just because it’s not against “the rules” doesn’t mean it’s safe and responsible. We have a different assessment of the risks and that’s ok. I have to weigh our mental health against our Covid risk and make the decision that’s right for my family. Don’t particularly care what anyone else thinks of that. Yes and the not caring is exactly why the everyone else is fucked.
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Post by myshelly on Oct 22, 2020 21:17:45 GMT
Their daily deaths since August has been in single digits. Sweden ranks 15th highest in the world for deaths per capita due to Covid. That seems pretty good to me. I’d call it a success.
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ashley
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,400
Jun 17, 2016 12:36:53 GMT
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Post by ashley on Oct 22, 2020 21:18:11 GMT
Sweden ranks 15th highest in the world for deaths per capita due to Covid. That seems pretty good to me. I’d call it a success. Wow.
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craftykitten
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,304
Jun 26, 2014 7:39:32 GMT
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Post by craftykitten on Oct 22, 2020 21:19:02 GMT
Sweden has the world's 14th worst death rate and their economy has contracted by about the same amount as other countries, so I think we can discount any idea that they have somehow done 'better' than the rest of us. There ARE countries who are being successful in keeping on top of cases, so it is not impossible, or unstoppable - it's just really hard and requires everyone to make sacrifices. And perhaps it requires people like myshelly to realise that just because something is 'in the rules' doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. The idea that it's difficult, so let's give up and let the virus 'run its course' is, frankly, preposterous. What is wrong with you? And I think it's insulting to everyone who has sacrificed so far to suggest that their losses (financial, physical, emotional) were somehow 'in vain'. Of course they were not. Every choice someone makes is potentially saving a life.
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Post by nlwilkins on Oct 22, 2020 21:23:16 GMT
"Doing everything right" does not mean they still gather together. Just saying.
They were unwilling to shut down and are reaping the consequences.
"But for many, the sacrifices that helped during the first round seem lost now, as though they had been made in vain."
There is no short term answer for Covid. It is going to be at least a year or more before we can have the lives we used to have. The sooner we accept that and restrain ourselves and follow the guidelines the less people we will have to bury.
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scrappinspidey2
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,511
Location: In the Parlor with the Fly
Mar 18, 2015 19:19:37 GMT
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Post by scrappinspidey2 on Oct 22, 2020 21:28:11 GMT
I keep saying this: It isn't a matter of IF you get the virus, it is a matter of WHEN. Everything we are doing now is just to prevent overloading of the medical facilities. Masks do not stop you from getting the virus, they slow down the transmission rates. Social distancing does not prevent you from getting the virus, it slows down the transmission rates. A virus is gonna do what it is meant to do until they find a way to eradicate it or vaccinate against it. Focus should be on treatment options and vaccinations.
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Post by silverlining on Oct 22, 2020 21:36:32 GMT
I think that many states in the US have policies that are not nearly as strict as those in countries that have done well, so it's possible that people are following their local laws and still gathering in larger groups than are safe. Plus, we never really had a strong national message about the importance of sacrifice for the common good, or even the effectiveness of masks in protecting those around us.
Some areas have been very clear about the definition of family as being those in your own household, and others have either allowed or ignored gatherings of extended family members.
I hate the headline of the article in the op and implication that it doesn't matter what we do.
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Post by refugeepea on Oct 22, 2020 21:50:01 GMT
Agreed. But it feels as though that’s never going to happen. We aren’t allowed anyone in our homes or yards here, all our restaurants are closed except for takeout, and our daily numbers continue to rise. Looking at the threads on this board about the upcoming holidays, it seems as though no one thinks the rules apply to them. The question was what is your family is doing, so I answered honestly. I assumed the question meant more than just my husband and kids. Since it is usually a multi generational gathering. They will be doing the same thing as they do every year. It doesn't mean I'll be there.
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pinklady
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,922
Nov 14, 2016 23:47:03 GMT
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Post by pinklady on Oct 22, 2020 21:52:58 GMT
So was this post just the attempt by the OP to profess that it never mattered what her cult leader did in relation to COVID?
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