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Post by lucyg on Oct 23, 2020 20:53:32 GMT
I am going from memory here, but didn’t something similar happen during the 1918 pandemic? I’ve lost track of exactly what we’re talking about here but if you mean a second wave ... yes. The first wave was spring/summer 1918, second wave was fall 1918/winter 1919 and it was much more widespread and deadly.
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Post by pierogi on Oct 23, 2020 20:57:44 GMT
I am going from memory here, but didn’t something similar happen during the 1918 pandemic? I’ve lost track of exactly what we’re talking about here but if you mean a second wave ... yes. The first wave was spring/summer 1918, second wave was fall 1918/winter 1919 and it was much more widespread and deadly. In 1918 there was a sort of respite during the summer and everyone thought it was over. However, somewhere between the end of spring and the beginning of fall, the virus mutated and the second wave was much worse than the first.
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Post by dewryce on Oct 23, 2020 21:09:37 GMT
I just read a report today that the original lockdown/stay at home orders likely saved 130,000 lives. I guess it actually DID do some good. And can you imagine how much better it would be if more people had actually stayed home then*** and more people were following the guidelines now? It’s so weird, almost like the experts know what they are talking about. *** I live in Texas, and things did not shut down here as much as many other places. One weekend fairly early on we went to drop off masks/sanitizer/Clorox wipes/etc to a few friends & family. First, it was so weird being out and about. But also? The roads and many parking lots almost looked like they would any other weekend. I was gobsmacked.
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Post by Merge on Oct 23, 2020 21:22:55 GMT
All out of our hands? What do you think causes disease? Magic? Bad luck? Divine intervention? That would be scary indeed. If cases are climbing in your area, as they are in mine, it’s likely because people are not complying. Bars are open here in contravention of local shutdown orders, and people continue to have house parties, weddings, etc. That is not compliance. And at least in my state, we never had it fully even when we were first “locked down,” because from the first, our president and GOP leadership repeated the lie that the whole thing was a big hoax to hurt Trump. Cases are climbing all over the world, and the US. Even in areas that are doing most things right. 100% compliance is not an achievable goal. It's a highly unrealistic expectation. I know what caused THIS disease lol but that's a whole 'other can of worms. Bioterrorism for $500, Alex? Joking, but not really . . . It was not created by us, was within our ranks weeks before we even had a chance to begin to respond, and had spread like wildfire because of subterfuge and disinformation from our leaders and the leaders of China. And you, YOU, seem to think that just the average joe can stop it by sticking a mask over his piehole? What ego. This has been a job for the professionals from the very beginning. But again, since we're all busy fighting each other we sure aren't looking at what's really going on. It's working. Don’t take it from me. The professionals are universally (well, except for a few kooks as you have in any profession) in favor of people wearing masks and not congregating in groups. They’re also quite clear on the fact that while this is not a foolproof solution, it mitigates the spread substantially. I prefer to listen to what the experts say, rather than spreading conspiracy theories about “what’s really going on” to support my own poor choices.
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kibblesandbits
Pearl Clutcher
At the corner of Awesome and Bombdiggity
Posts: 3,305
Aug 13, 2016 13:47:39 GMT
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Post by kibblesandbits on Oct 23, 2020 21:32:27 GMT
Cases are climbing all over the world, and the US. Even in areas that are doing most things right. 100% compliance is not an achievable goal. It's a highly unrealistic expectation. I know what caused THIS disease lol but that's a whole 'other can of worms. Bioterrorism for $500, Alex? Joking, but not really . . . It was not created by us, was within our ranks weeks before we even had a chance to begin to respond, and had spread like wildfire because of subterfuge and disinformation from our leaders and the leaders of China. And you, YOU, seem to think that just the average joe can stop it by sticking a mask over his piehole? What ego. This has been a job for the professionals from the very beginning. But again, since we're all busy fighting each other we sure aren't looking at what's really going on. It's working. Don’t take it from me. The professionals are universally (well, except for a few kooks as you have in any profession) in favor of people wearing masks and not congregating in groups. They’re also quite clear on the fact that while this is not a foolproof solution, it mitigates the spread substantially. I prefer to listen to what the experts say, rather than spreading conspiracy theories about “what’s really going on” to support my own poor choices. Well, since I'm not making poor choices . . . . . I have, actually, been very proactive about my own personal health during this pandemic. Upped my healthy eating game, which was already in good shape. Increased exercise. Taken care of various flu shots, etc. AND taken myself from the higher end of my healthy weight range to the lower end. Making myself the smallest target possible, pandemic wise. Can YOU say the same? There's a lot more to this than staying home.
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Post by lucyg on Oct 23, 2020 21:43:50 GMT
Don’t take it from me. The professionals are universally (well, except for a few kooks as you have in any profession) in favor of people wearing masks and not congregating in groups. They’re also quite clear on the fact that while this is not a foolproof solution, it mitigates the spread substantially. I prefer to listen to what the experts say, rather than spreading conspiracy theories about “what’s really going on” to support my own poor choices. Well, since I'm not making poor choices . . . . . I have, actually, been very proactive about my own personal health during this pandemic. Upped my healthy eating game, which was already in good shape. Increased exercise. Taken care of various flu shots, etc. AND taken myself from the higher end of my healthy weight range to the lower end. Making myself the smallest target possible, pandemic wise. Can YOU say the same? There's a lot more to this than staying home. oh jeez. You just keep trying to one-up yourself here, don't you? Personally, I’d enjoy seeing you explain in plain English this conspiracy theory you’ve been hinting at about the “creation” of the virus.
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kibblesandbits
Pearl Clutcher
At the corner of Awesome and Bombdiggity
Posts: 3,305
Aug 13, 2016 13:47:39 GMT
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Post by kibblesandbits on Oct 23, 2020 21:44:15 GMT
@merge kind of seems like I'm taking all this out on you, and I apologize for that. it's just all so stupid, you know? We want the impossible, to do the improbable. We're all playing one game, while our leaders are playing another.
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kibblesandbits
Pearl Clutcher
At the corner of Awesome and Bombdiggity
Posts: 3,305
Aug 13, 2016 13:47:39 GMT
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Post by kibblesandbits on Oct 23, 2020 21:47:37 GMT
Well, since I'm not making poor choices . . . . . I have, actually, been very proactive about my own personal health during this pandemic. Upped my healthy eating game, which was already in good shape. Increased exercise. Taken care of various flu shots, etc. AND taken myself from the higher end of my healthy weight range to the lower end. Making myself the smallest target possible, pandemic wise. Can YOU say the same? There's a lot more to this than staying home. oh jeez. You just keep trying to one-up yourself here, don't you? Personally, I’d enjoy seeing you explain in plain English this conspiracy theory you’ve been hinting at about the “creation” of the virus. No conspiracy theory, really. Just that lots of things can happen in leadership and by leadership when the general public is distracted and encouraged to bait and argue amongst themselves. Keep 'em busy. Do yourself a favor and read Heather Cox Richardson updates every day and see a big picture of all the things going on while we're judging who is wearing a fucking mask correctly. Kisses!
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Post by megop on Oct 23, 2020 21:51:21 GMT
Don’t take it from me. The professionals are universally (well, except for a few kooks as you have in any profession) in favor of people wearing masks and not congregating in groups. They’re also quite clear on the fact that while this is not a foolproof solution, it mitigates the spread substantially. I prefer to listen to what the experts say, rather than spreading conspiracy theories about “what’s really going on” to support my own poor choices. Well, since I'm not making poor choices . . . . . I have, actually, been very proactive about my own personal health during this pandemic. Upped my healthy eating game, which was already in good shape. Increased exercise. Taken care of various flu shots, etc. AND taken myself from the higher end of my healthy weight range to the lower end. Making myself the smallest target possible, pandemic wise. Can YOU say the same? There's a lot more to this than staying home. I'm really struggling at finding your exact point really in this entire exchange. If it is to thwart the notion of another nationwide shut down, I agree with you. This is all about hot zone mitigation. If your point is to educate others that is more to do than just rely on masks, hand, distance, again I agree. But from what I'm sensing, you are frustrated with the feeling that others are judging your comfort level of gathering that is really at play here and my question to you is, why do you care so much if you truly believe it ok for you to do so? Just asking, not judging. Edited to add. Missed your latest posts while typing so feel free to ignore this as I check out your reading suggestion.
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Post by megop on Oct 23, 2020 21:58:29 GMT
oh jeez. You just keep trying to one-up yourself here, don't you? Personally, I’d enjoy seeing you explain in plain English this conspiracy theory you’ve been hinting at about the “creation” of the virus. No conspiracy theory, really. Just that lots of things can happen in leadership and by leadership when the general public is distracted and encouraged to bait and argue amongst themselves. Keep 'em busy. Do yourself a favor and read Heather Cox Richardson updates every day and see a big picture of all the things going on while we're judging who is wearing a fucking mask correctly. Kisses! Ok, so I checked her out and I will say that in my experience here, the political participants on this board are very tuned in to all the points/developments that Heather Cox Richardson writes about. I think being more forthcoming about your frame of reference and why you say what you say would go along way to actually find many who agree with you.
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kibblesandbits
Pearl Clutcher
At the corner of Awesome and Bombdiggity
Posts: 3,305
Aug 13, 2016 13:47:39 GMT
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Post by kibblesandbits on Oct 23, 2020 22:01:54 GMT
Well, since I'm not making poor choices . . . . . I have, actually, been very proactive about my own personal health during this pandemic. Upped my healthy eating game, which was already in good shape. Increased exercise. Taken care of various flu shots, etc. AND taken myself from the higher end of my healthy weight range to the lower end. Making myself the smallest target possible, pandemic wise. Can YOU say the same? There's a lot more to this than staying home. I'm really struggling at finding your exact point really in this entire exchange. If it is to thwart the notion of another nationwide shut down, I agree with you. This is all about hot zone mitigation. If your point is to educate others that is more to do than just rely on masks, hand, distance, again I agree. But from what I'm sensing, you are frustrated with the feeling that others are judging your comfort level of gathering that is really at play here and my question to you is, why do you care so much if you truly believe it ok for you to do so? Just asking, not judging. Edited to add. Missed your latest posts while typing so feel free to ignore this as I check out your reading suggestion. The prevailing narrative here about "everyone just stay home" is wearing thin. We are so far past that fantasy, yet it still keeps being presented as if it is an actual thing that is going to happen again. It's not. More focused attention and regional restrictions are going to be the defense line, and will be micro targeting small group gatherings. So, while it may be that bars and crowds and "dumb people" (as the high and mighty here suggest) are the spreaders, it's REALLY the small gatherings, kid's soccer game guests, Friday night football activities, and church gatherings. But we aren't griping about those, are we? On the first page alone here there's "my kid's soccer game" and "group gathering to watch amazing race" and "what's your thanksgiving travel plans?"
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Post by megop on Oct 23, 2020 22:03:08 GMT
Yup. See my previous post. I think you have common ground here and just a communication barrier happening.
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
Jun 26, 2014 23:58:32 GMT
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Post by sassyangel on Oct 23, 2020 22:12:54 GMT
oh jeez. You just keep trying to one-up yourself here, don't you? Personally, I’d enjoy seeing you explain in plain English this conspiracy theory you’ve been hinting at about the “creation” of the virus. No conspiracy theory, really. Just that lots of things can happen in leadership and by leadership when the general public is distracted and encouraged to bait and argue amongst themselves. Keep 'em busy. Do yourself a favor and read Heather Cox Richardson updates every day and see a big picture of all the things going on while we're judging who is wearing a fucking mask correctly. Kisses! I read her everyday, have been for months. While she is great at bringing to light stuff that might go under the radar, I’m not getting *anything like that vibe* regarding the origins of Covid from her daily letters.
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kibblesandbits
Pearl Clutcher
At the corner of Awesome and Bombdiggity
Posts: 3,305
Aug 13, 2016 13:47:39 GMT
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Post by kibblesandbits on Oct 23, 2020 22:21:07 GMT
Yup. See my previous post. I think you have common ground here and just a communication barrier happening. I agree, but since most discussions here about the virus begin and end with the judgmental derision of the pious, not much get discussed other than compliance, and lack thereof. Which is rather understandable, as we the general public have pretty much ZERO control over what is happening to us. Well, we have masks . . . Here's what we could be focusing on: how to maintain a functioning economy within the strictures of virus containment; expand testing and results exponentially so that information is readily available within a useful time period; effectively use tracing to track disease progression and predict future hot spots; isolate as much as possible the elderly, diseased, and the obese - the ones most vulnerable to those disease; where are the "infection chains" and how do we disrupt them?
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Post by lucyg on Oct 23, 2020 22:21:50 GMT
No conspiracy theory, really. Just that lots of things can happen in leadership and by leadership when the general public is distracted and encouraged to bait and argue amongst themselves. Keep 'em busy. Do yourself a favor and read Heather Cox Richardson updates every day and see a big picture of all the things going on while we're judging who is wearing a fucking mask correctly. Kisses! I read her everyday, have been for months. While she is great at bringing to light stuff that might go under the radar, I’m not getting *anything like that vibe* regarding the origins of Covid from her daily letters. Ditto all of that. I’m at a loss as to how you align HCR’s daily posts with an explanation of the conspiracy you insinuated regarding the origins of COVID19. kibblesandbits
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Post by aj2hall on Oct 23, 2020 22:21:59 GMT
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Post by Merge on Oct 23, 2020 22:28:16 GMT
I'm really struggling at finding your exact point really in this entire exchange. If it is to thwart the notion of another nationwide shut down, I agree with you. This is all about hot zone mitigation. If your point is to educate others that is more to do than just rely on masks, hand, distance, again I agree. But from what I'm sensing, you are frustrated with the feeling that others are judging your comfort level of gathering that is really at play here and my question to you is, why do you care so much if you truly believe it ok for you to do so? Just asking, not judging. Edited to add. Missed your latest posts while typing so feel free to ignore this as I check out your reading suggestion. The prevailing narrative here about "everyone just stay home" is wearing thin. We are so far past that fantasy, yet it still keeps being presented as if it is an actual thing that is going to happen again. It's not. More focused attention and regional restrictions are going to be the defense line, and will be micro targeting small group gatherings. So, while it may be that bars and crowds and "dumb people" (as the high and mighty here suggest) are the spreaders, it's REALLY the small gatherings, kid's soccer game guests, Friday night football activities, and church gatherings. But we aren't griping about those, are we? On the first page alone here there's "my kid's soccer game" and "group gathering to watch amazing race" and "what's your thanksgiving travel plans?" Well ... I am griping about those. We haven’t been in a room with our very closest friends - who we consider family - in 7 months because we are not doing indoor gatherings, period, and neither are they. My oldest daughter is doing college online from home this year, and my younger is missing out on all the things that are supposed to make her senior year special, and if I let myself be, would be absolutely outraged that people still think they should be going to football games and having family holidays. The fact that we aren’t overwhelmed with cases at this time seems entirely thanks to the portion of us who are still staying at home. And I’m very tired of carrying this burden when so many others think they are exempt from doing so. I agree that there might simply be a miscommunication here. I’m going to choose to ignore some of what you said that feels like a personal dig. I’ve worked way too hard on my mental health to let others get to me right now with cheap shots.
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Post by megop on Oct 23, 2020 22:29:09 GMT
Yup. See my previous post. I think you have common ground here and just a communication barrier happening. I agree, but since most discussions here about the virus begin and end with the judgmental derision of the pious, not much get discussed other than compliance, and lack thereof. Which is rather understandable, as we the general public have pretty much ZERO control over what is happening to us. Well, we have masks . . . Here's what we could be focusing on: how to maintain a functioning economy within the strictures of virus containment; expand testing and results exponentially so that information is readily available within a useful time period; effectively use tracing to track disease progression and predict future hot spots; isolate as much as possible the elderly, diseased, and the obese - the ones most vulnerable to those disease; where are the "infection chains" and how do we disrupt them? But don't you see? "Pious" is how you perceive, not necessarily the intention behind posts you read on this particular thread. From my perspective, all the things you cite have been talked about here even by the people you are disagreeing with. Merge for sure has repeatedly said the very things you did. All good. It's hard on a forum within an individual thread to know that kind of stuff.
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Post by lucyg on Oct 23, 2020 22:29:31 GMT
I have read that as much as 40% of the population has pre-existing condition(s) of some kind. Trying to isolate all of us is unrealistic. My grandson lives here much of the time; I also have elderly parents I help out with shopping/visits/etc. I’m much more interested in seeing the general population take more care not to spread the disease than I am in totally isolating myself AND my parents, and sending my kid away from the one home he’s really comfortable in. ETA and all those things in the second paragraph of your last post are exactly what the rest of us have been advocating. megop is entirely correct.
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Post by megop on Oct 23, 2020 22:32:14 GMT
My understanding is that we now know it is droplet and not the "medical" definition of aerosolized although droplets can remain in the air for a duration. It's hair splitting I know, but wanted to add the difference between airborne and aerosolized.
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Post by Merge on Oct 23, 2020 22:36:43 GMT
Unless you’re talking about little league, outdoor football games also involve indoor, unmasked locker room time for the players. A high school here had 19 cases in its football program alone. Goodness knows how many others they spread it to.
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kibblesandbits
Pearl Clutcher
At the corner of Awesome and Bombdiggity
Posts: 3,305
Aug 13, 2016 13:47:39 GMT
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Post by kibblesandbits on Oct 23, 2020 22:38:00 GMT
I agree, but since most discussions here about the virus begin and end with the judgmental derision of the pious, not much get discussed other than compliance, and lack thereof. Which is rather understandable, as we the general public have pretty much ZERO control over what is happening to us. Well, we have masks . . . Here's what we could be focusing on: how to maintain a functioning economy within the strictures of virus containment; expand testing and results exponentially so that information is readily available within a useful time period; effectively use tracing to track disease progression and predict future hot spots; isolate as much as possible the elderly, diseased, and the obese - the ones most vulnerable to those disease; where are the "infection chains" and how do we disrupt them? But don't you see? "Pious" is how you perceive, not necessarily the intention behind posts you read on this particular thread. From my perspective, all the things you cite have been talked about here even by the people you are disagreeing with. Merge for sure has repeatedly said the very things you did. All good. It's hard on a forum within an individual thread to know that kind of stuff. I will agree that this discussion would be much more effective in person. I have reached a point where almost all the mask threads have a certain feel, which may be my own assumptions. I appreciate your moderation here.
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Post by anxiousmom on Oct 23, 2020 22:48:33 GMT
Yup. See my previous post. I think you have common ground here and just a communication barrier happening. I agree, but since most discussions here about the virus begin and end with the judgmental derision of the pious, not much get discussed other than compliance, and lack thereof. Which is rather understandable, as we the general public have pretty much ZERO control over what is happening to us. Well, we have masks . . . Here's what we could be focusing on: how to maintain a functioning economy within the strictures of virus containment; expand testing and results exponentially so that information is readily available within a useful time period; effectively use tracing to track disease progression and predict future hot spots; isolate as much as possible the elderly, diseased, and the obese - the ones most vulnerable to those disease; where are the "infection chains" and how do we disrupt them? One last thing,.. because I don’t disagree with you- I live in a state that almost completely depends on tourism dollars and we need all those things you mentioned...and have zero chance of getting. But, I do dislike the term diseased. Seems a bit harsh? ...like people who they used to “send away to a home” in old school vernacular. Vulnerable to the virus is a bit more wordy, but much kinder.
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Post by aj2hall on Oct 23, 2020 22:50:50 GMT
Unless you’re talking about little league, outdoor football games also involve indoor, unmasked locker room time for the players. A high school here had 19 cases in its football program alone. Goodness knows how many others they spread it to. I didn’t think about that, but you’re right. Most of our sports here right now are little league and rec programs. Our school district is remote for high school & middle school, but the fall sports are playing, with some restrictions. No buses, driving separately to games and practices, masks and I don’t think they’re using locker rooms. A much shorter game schedule and only surrounding towns. They’ve also limited spectators, I think parents are only allowed at home games. I don’t really agree, if it’s not safe for kids to be in school, how is it safe for them to play together? But, I do think they have taken steps to reduce the risks.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Oct 23, 2020 22:54:51 GMT
Don’t take it from me. The professionals are universally (well, except for a few kooks as you have in any profession) in favor of people wearing masks and not congregating in groups. They’re also quite clear on the fact that while this is not a foolproof solution, it mitigates the spread substantially. I prefer to listen to what the experts say, rather than spreading conspiracy theories about “what’s really going on” to support my own poor choices. Well, since I'm not making poor choices . . . . . I have, actually, been very proactive about my own personal health during this pandemic. Upped my healthy eating game, which was already in good shape. Increased exercise. Taken care of various flu shots, etc. AND taken myself from the higher end of my healthy weight range to the lower end. Making myself the smallest target possible, pandemic wise. Can YOU say the same? There's a lot more to this than staying home. Well fuck I guess my train has lost its wheels but... Who's acting superior? Because after this post I'm really fucking confused
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kibblesandbits
Pearl Clutcher
At the corner of Awesome and Bombdiggity
Posts: 3,305
Aug 13, 2016 13:47:39 GMT
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Post by kibblesandbits on Oct 23, 2020 22:56:12 GMT
I agree, but since most discussions here about the virus begin and end with the judgmental derision of the pious, not much get discussed other than compliance, and lack thereof. Which is rather understandable, as we the general public have pretty much ZERO control over what is happening to us. Well, we have masks . . . Here's what we could be focusing on: how to maintain a functioning economy within the strictures of virus containment; expand testing and results exponentially so that information is readily available within a useful time period; effectively use tracing to track disease progression and predict future hot spots; isolate as much as possible the elderly, diseased, and the obese - the ones most vulnerable to those disease; where are the "infection chains" and how do we disrupt them? One last thing,.. because I don’t disagree with you- I live in a state that almost completely depends on tourism dollars and we need all those things you mentioned...and have zero chance of getting. But, I do dislike the term diseased. Seems a bit harsh? ...like people who they used to “send away to a home” in old school vernacular. Vulnerable to the virus is a bit more wordy, but much kinder. Pretty sure that I meant “diabetic” - yes vulnerable is a better word.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Oct 23, 2020 23:00:29 GMT
But don't you see? "Pious" is how you perceive, not necessarily the intention behind posts you read on this particular thread. From my perspective, all the things you cite have been talked about here even by the people you are disagreeing with. Merge for sure has repeatedly said the very things you did. All good. It's hard on a forum within an individual thread to know that kind of stuff. I will agree that this discussion would be much more effective in person. I have reached a point where almost all the mask threads have a certain feel, which may be my own assumptions. I appreciate your moderation here. Well that's a start. Thank you. I am not operating from a place of superiority. I know I have risk factors that I'm trying to minimize. What infuriates me is what the people around me that I care dearly about are doing. And if that makes me judgemental I'll own it. Because I do not want to get covid. And I want to see the people I love. But I'm not because it isn't safe.
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Oct 23, 2020 23:14:00 GMT
Zounds.
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Post by anxiousmom on Oct 23, 2020 23:18:02 GMT
One last thing,.. because I don’t disagree with you- I live in a state that almost completely depends on tourism dollars and we need all those things you mentioned...and have zero chance of getting. But, I do dislike the term diseased. Seems a bit harsh? ...like people who they used to “send away to a home” in old school vernacular. Vulnerable to the virus is a bit more wordy, but much kinder. Pretty sure that I meant “diabetic” - yes vulnerable is a better word. Well, in my case diabetic fits so... that works perfectly. lol
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Post by dewryce on Oct 23, 2020 23:20:12 GMT
Yup. See my previous post. I think you have common ground here and just a communication barrier happening. I agree, but since most discussions here about the virus begin and end with the judgmental derision of the pious, not much get discussed other than compliance, and lack thereof. Which is rather understandable, as we the general public have pretty much ZERO control over what is happening to us. Well, we have masks . . . Here's what we could be focusing on: how to maintain a functioning economy within the strictures of virus containment; expand testing and results exponentially so that information is readily available within a useful time period; effectively use tracing to track disease progression and predict future hot spots; isolate as much as possible the elderly, diseased, and the obese - the ones most vulnerable to those disease; where are the "infection chains" and how do we disrupt them? We have talked about these about these things. When we say gather safely we are not only talking about avoiding bars. I think it was in this thread that I mentioned how people’s bubbles probably aren’t as small and safe and they think they are. We are talking about Thanksgiving and how people gathering for that is an issue. We also mentioned how rates have taken a big leap after every holiday because of these smaller gatherings. And I disagree that we have zero control. We can’t stop it. But we absolutely can slow it down. We can and should do what we personally can to help stop the spread. And according to most experts mask wearing IS a big part of that. In addition to being smart about where we go, including small gatherings. You want to talk about how to maintain a functioning economy? Masks, distancing, and washing hands MUST also be a part of the solution. Compliance includes mask wearing.
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