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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 20:49:13 GMT
But perhaps we can extend the polite discussion further because there is a question I truly would like answered. In that interview you linked the professor mentioned Israel as an apartheid state. Is that something you agree with? If so, can you tell me in your own words why you think that to be true? Because I don't think that is a claim with any factual basis and simply doesn't stand up to the light of day. And just because this thread is getting so long, here are my previous comments about it: Your response? Here it is Becky! I understand what your views are but I think it goes further than just the 20% of the population part.( in my opinion). I'll understand if you don't agree with it.I feel a little on the reluctant side of expressing my opinion on such an emotive subject on here but you asked. Hopefully we can have a fairly balanced discussion about it if needed:) . This is going to be long because it’s not a subject that you can cover in a few sentences. First of all, I can’t agree or disagree with the article in that link because he’s given no explanation on what bases his claim is made. I like some reasons for making claims that turn out to be controversial. Neither has he explained what his definition of apartheid is. Apartheid is a very emotive word and very often the true meaning isn’t always clear to a number of people. We’re so used to hearing it applied to a past regime in South Africa, from where it initially originated that we get lost in the translation of the original word. The original word from the Afrikaan language actually means 'separateness (from the Dutch) another word for apart. So which meaning do we use to describe apartheid….the original or the meaning that was adopted by the Afrikaner National Party in 1948… segregation by race? Palestinians is a nationality and not a race in my opinion ( Arab is a race) so I’ll go with the original meaning as we’re specifically discussing Palestinians. Is Israel an apartheid state from the word separate/apart in relation to the Palestinians? One could say it is if you consider that the Gaza strip and the West Bank are occupied Palestinian territories controlled by Israel. It could also qualify in so far as the citizens of Gaza and the West Bank are not allowed to vote in the Israeli elections, although both are occupied and controlled by Israel. The fact that the Palestinians are allowed to vote in their own Parliament is irrelevant at this point because although the UN has declared Palestine a non member observer State two years ago. Israel does not recognize its status. So if Israel does not recognize the State of Palestine that makes Gaza and the West Bank a part of Israel. What is known is that Israel controls the land, air and sea access to these separated areas within the State of Israel, therefore restricting movement to some but not to all citizens of Israel. It controls the imports and exports into these areas and in doing so creates a socio-economic marginalization. It’s Israel alone that issues ID’s to Palestinians to enable them to work. I don’t know if Israeli’s have to be in possession of similar ID’s before they can work. There is also the matter of roads in the occupied territories. Is it true there are roads that are exclusive for the use of Israeli’s in the occupied West Bank? I read that somewhere but I can’t remember where. If a child of Palestinian parents is born outside of Gaza or the West Bank what Nationality is he/she. Palestinian or Israeli? Palestinian of course. Israel is the only country in the world that does not issue passport or the right to that country's nationality unless they are also Jewish. But every Jewish person wherever they are in the world is able to return to Israel and become an Israeli citizen. That has been mentioned by many articles when making a claim of apartheid against Israel. I know the reason for it but that isn't the issue here at this time. Palestinian Israelis who marry Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories cannot reside with their spouses in Israel, although Jewish Israelis can legally reside with their spouses in a settlement in the Occupied Territories. Is that still the law? These are just a few examples that are worth considering. I’ve read many more. I don’t happen to think that anyone in my position is able to honestly accuse Israel of apartheid, I lack of personal experience to do so. I can only consider what various human rights articles have reported and I’m undecided. There are too many questions that need answering before I can honestly refute it either. I also can’t dismiss the Professor, who happens to be Jewish, without a solid reason to do so. .No more than I could argue that he was telling the truth. I don’t have that proof either. So the bottom line is I can't decide one way or another. I'm torn!
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Post by BeckyTech on Aug 6, 2014 2:59:14 GMT
@dottyscrapper, first I have to tell you that I started smiling when reading the first few sentences of your response. You seem to have read my mind, as I was thinking just a few hours before that we had neglected to discuss the meaning of the word to begin with. A definition was the perfect place to start.
You bring up some excellent and very thought-provoking points. I had a long response written out, but the fact is that it boils down to this: All the measures that Israel takes -- on everything from identity cards to where married couples can reside -- have all been in response to some pretty horrific terrorist attacks. Here is a sample:
Some of these laws and restrictions have been challenged and I can see some of the merits of the pros and cons of each side. But ultimately, they are all restrictions brought on by the Palestinians own actions. I believe the primary reason Israel refuses to recognize the Palestinians as a state is that it refuses to deal with a terrorist government. That would be the people that want to wipe them off the map. My own opinion is that they have a valid point there. Yes, of course the blockade hampers economic development, but yet … they manage to smuggle in a great deal of weaponry to shoot at Israel. I have to wonder what their socio-economic standards would be like if they channeled some of that effort into real industries. While their leaders become millionaires and billionaires, the people languish. It’s terrible. As one human being to another, I can’t help but feel sad for the average Palestinian citizen. But how do you make them see the cause and effect of their actions? The answer is: You don’t. That would be applying our western way of thinking to the situation, and that is simply not their culture. By the way, have you read the Wikipedia reference entitled Israel and the apartheid analogy? I thought it was an unusual Wiki piece in that it tried to lay out some of history and explanations of the issue in a reasonably balanced manner. I only read down to the “Support for …” section and stopped there due to time constraints. After that there is a section entitled “Criticism of …” which I didn’t get to either. I just want to end on the note that I appreciate your thoughtful, measured response. As I said before, it was very thought provoking. Thank you!
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Post by leftturnonly on Aug 6, 2014 7:05:05 GMT
How dare you suggest such a thing. I'm not hell bent of vilifying Israel either. If I wanted to really do that I have plenty of links that I could post on here to do that if I really wanted to. Dotty, I've checked the links you've provided. They are far from being neutral, and are certainly nowhere near the unbiased reports that you are requesting. This isn't one that you gave, but follow along with me here as it is too similar to what I've found from your links. I was watching CNN a little while ago. There is a ceasefire that is still holding and they had reporters in Gaza showing the destruction created over the past several days. AT NO TIME DURING THAT SPOT did they mention that at least some of the destruction being shown was because of the need to destroy the tunnels leading into Israel. No, the focus was the children, the women, the loss of homes. All tragic, all true, and only a portion of the story that looks entirely different when more of the story is told. It's pretty dismissive of you to reject all links to sites that support Israel when the links you provide have definite agendas as well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 11:26:46 GMT
How dare you suggest such a thing. I'm not hell bent of vilifying Israel either. If I wanted to really do that I have plenty of links that I could post on here to do that if I really wanted to. Dotty, I've checked the links you've provided. They are far from being neutral, and are certainly nowhere near the unbiased reports that you are requesting.This isn't one that you gave, but follow along with me here as it is too similar to what I've found from your links. I was watching CNN a little while ago. There is a ceasefire that is still holding and they had reporters in Gaza showing the destruction created over the past several days. AT NO TIME DURING THAT SPOT did they mention that at least some of the destruction being shown was because of the need to destroy the tunnels leading into Israel. No, the focus was the children, the women, the loss of homes. All tragic, all true, and only a portion of the story that looks entirely different when more of the story is told. It's pretty dismissive of you to reject all links to sites that support Israel when the links you provide have definite agendas as well. Ok lefty I must be extremely dim this morning but I'm going to list the links that I've posted on this thread. I genuinely would like to know which of these links do you not class as neutral and more importantly what is your definition of bias? CIA link if you say this isn't neutral I shall have to agree with you. You know your Government Intelligence Agency better than I do International Humanitarian Law A wiki link explaining the addition of this to the Geneva Convention. Maybe I shouldn't have used Wiki! Images of Ukraine protest in London images in reply to Lucy's questions regarding other non Palestinian protests in London. I don't know what political affiliation the London Evening Standard newspaper has. Maybe I should have checked but the images are much the same as was shown in all news media at the time. Syrian protest n London The original link for Lucy was of the Syrian protesters in london linked to google images. The link now takes you to a photo journalism site called Demotix. A site obviously for the media to purchase press photographers images. It has a variety of images so I personally wouldn't define the site as not being neutral. Syrian protest link some further images for Lucy of the Syrian protest. llan Pappe an interview with a Jewish history Professor who lives and works at a British University and who happens to question his country's politics isn't in my opinion biased. CBS News again I have no idea if CBS news is biased and that is why I posted the official UN link that they were reporting on. UN report official UN report on the Convention on the Rights of the Child Amnesty international Report It's interesting that this link has somehow disappeared from my original post on 8/4 at 2.01pm where I quoted extracts AND the link. Here it is again. However, I will defend my belief that Amnesty is a neutral and unbiased organization. Twitter link When GAJenny links You Tube videos that are at least a couple of years old, if not more......videos that cannot be verified. Expects others to accept them as fact and when questioned about the validity of those videos one gets accused of sucking from the teat of Hamas then there's little wonder that one will upload an opposing link. Have you questioned GAJenny's video as being unbiased or neutral? Ben- Ki- Moon's statement ( WARNING - there are graphic extremely distressing images in this link) A Daily Mail link reporting on Ben-Ki-Moon Secretary General of the United Nations's statement regarding the humanitarian crises facing Gaza. His actual words are quoted in this report. Are you suggesting that whatever comes out of the mouth of the Secretary General of the United Nations is either biased or not neutral enough? and finally Belsen an article I found when searching for something entirely different that I linked for the benefit of Lauren who had nothing to contribute to the thread except for her extremely insulting name calling. What is written in that report from the Jewish Chronicle is FACT so how can you interpret that link with being biased? Do tell me have I missed any of my links,which ones do you find biased,which ones do you not agree that are neutral? I'd be very interested to know! I'm getting pretty tired of being accused of being anti-semetic,sucking off the teat of Hamas,being questioned about EVERYTHING that is being linked and being quoted out of context.....why is that.... because it doesn't gel well with the opinion of others? This thread isn't a discussion it's a subtle way of censoring and eliminating other people's opinions.
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Post by I-95 on Aug 6, 2014 12:10:10 GMT
1. Yes, Israelis have to carry a National ID card and show to be able to work, travel, open a bank account etc 2. Roads in the West Bank are available to everyone 3. That comes as a surprise to me, and a bunch of other people I know, who are not Jewish and carry Israeli passports! The process for becoming an Israeli citizen, if you're not Jewish, is more complex than if you are, but there is nothing to stop you from becoming one, and carrying an Israeli passport. Approximately 21% of Israel’s more than eight million citizens are Arabs. The vast majority of the Israeli Arabs - 81% - are Muslims. Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote. Arabs currently hold ten seats in the Knesset. Why should those who choose to be called Palestinians be allowed to vote in an Israeli election? Do you let the French vote in your elections, just because they're living in London? You seem to have a lot of incorrect information about how things work in this NON-apartheid country!
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Post by I-95 on Aug 6, 2014 12:17:57 GMT
Thanks Skypea......and Liz....I think this rules out Skypea being Skybar. Hell would have to truly freeze over before Skybar would ever have supported anything I said, even if she agreed with me, which was never, she still wouldn't have posted a support statement....ever!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 12:26:47 GMT
1. Yes, Israelis have to carry a National ID card and show to be able to work, travel, open a bank account etc 2. Roads in the West Bank are available to everyone 3. That comes as a surprise to me, and a bunch of other people I know, who are not Jewish and carry Israeli passports! The process for becoming an Israeli citizen, if you're not Jewish, is more complex than if you are, but there is nothing to stop you from becoming one, and carrying an Israeli passport. Approximately 21% of Israel’s more than eight million citizens are Arabs. The vast majority of the Israeli Arabs - 81% - are Muslims. Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote. Arabs currently hold ten seats in the Knesset. Why should those who choose to be called Palestinians be allowed to vote in an Israeli election? Do you let the French vote in your elections, just because they're living in London? You seem to have a lot of incorrect information about how things work in this NON-apartheid country! Thanks for the clarification on the parts that I questioned. No, Britain doesn't allow the French to vote here unless of course they have applied and been given citizenship. There again, we don't occupy parts of France or control their borders and we do recognize France as a country. So there is a difference. But as a Christian country we also don't deny citizenship or make the process more complex to a non christian either.
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Post by I-95 on Aug 6, 2014 12:51:08 GMT
Yes, you do, but the UK abstained from the UN vote to include Palestine as non-member observer State and said it would not support any vote for higher status (i.e. full membership)
You do understand why Israel controls the borders, right?
Just to clear up another thing, there is no such thing as a Palestinian Israeli. One is either a Palestinian, or an Israeli Arab. Israeli Arabs do not self identify as Palestinians.
Since just about all the information you posted, as to why Israel could be called an apartheid State, is incorrect, does that mean you are solidly in agreement that it is not an apartheid State? You said you were on the fence before...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 13:23:15 GMT
Yes, you do, but the UK abstained from the UN vote to include Palestine as non-member observer State and said it would not support any vote for higher status (i.e. full membership) It wasn't quite as straight forward as that though. They abstained because they needed the re-assurance that Palestine would return to the peace talks and that they wouldn't immediately proceed to the International Court of Human rights. And rightly so at the time. Abstaining is not quite the same as voting against it altogether. A No vote is a just that.... no. Abstaining is " the conditions attached to the resolution haven't yet been met,we reserve the right to not vote on the issue as it stands at this particular time" Big difference! They expressed a wish for both parties to return to the peace talks.You do understand why Israel controls the borders, right? YesJust to clear up another thing, there is no such thing as a Palestinian Israeli. One is either a Palestinian, or an Israeli Arab. Israeli Arabs do not self identify as Palestinians. OK thanks for that clarification
Since just about all the information you posted, as to why Israel could be called an apartheid State, is incorrect, does that mean you are solidly in agreement that it is not an apartheid State? You said you were on the fence before... I'm still on there. Whilst I appreciate you answering the questions I would still need far more confirmation and independent facts to decide whether a country is or is not an apartheid state not just Israel but any country. But I do appreciate your input to the "pot" of research so to speak.
Can you just confirm something else for me that I read on Wiki ( I know not the most accurate of sites but...) This bit here about this law.......is it still in existence? The Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Order) 5763 is an Israeli law first passed on 31 July 2003 and most recently extended in June 2008.[1] The law makes citizens of Iran, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Libya, Sudan, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, the West Bank and Gaza Strip ineligible for the automatic granting of Israeli citizenship and residency permits that is usually available through marriage to an Israeli citizen Wiki link to Law
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Post by I-95 on Aug 6, 2014 14:21:16 GMT
I honestly don't know. It's not one of the things that usually hits my radar, but I'll see what I can find out. However, it wouldn't surprise me. The countries listed are generally not considered to be friends of Israel, but it does say they are not 'automatically' granted citizenship or residency. That doesn't mean they are excluded from it, just that it's not an automatic grant. That is not a policy that is exclusive to Israel, there are many other countries who don't grant automatic citizenship when one marries a citizen, including the UK and the USA.
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anniebygaslight
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Post by anniebygaslight on Aug 6, 2014 14:42:27 GMT
What difference does that make? I hate when people pull that crap. Does that negate someone's opinion because they haven't been here long enough for you, Skybar or Skypea? Not often I agree with lizandjuan. The old pea hierarchy died with the old pod. We are all newish peas here.
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Post by I-95 on Aug 6, 2014 14:46:36 GMT
Uh huh...tell that to the Al Fayed family!
I doubt that getting Israeli citizenship is any more complex for someone like me (non-Jewish) than it would be if I were to apply for citizenship in any other country. When I said it was more complex, all that means is it's not automatic as it is for a Jewish person who wants to immigrate here. But your statement goes to show how little you actually know about Israel. You said the other day that you consider Israel and the Jewish people to be two separate entities. You can consider anything you want, but the fact is, they are not. This is not a country, like the USA that separates Church and State. This country was founded as a JEWISH state. You can get all flipped out about that and consider it racist, separatist, discriminatory, or anything else you'd like to think, but it is what it is and it is not going to change. Believe me, on this point, Israel and the Jewish people seriously don't care how you think it should be. As a non-Jew I find it a little limiting at times, for instance, my DH and I could not marry in the State of Israel because I am not Jewish, but they do recognize the legality of marriages performed outside of the country. Should I feel discriminated against? Nope. I knew how it was and Israel has never made a secret of the fact that this is a JEWISH state....and I fully support their position. This country is good to their people...including me, and to be honest, it pisses me off when outsiders, who don't understand the culture, try to make us sound bad because we don't conform to what works in YOUR country. You really should take a look at your own county's history of class systems, and its current attitude toward immigration before you question ours.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 15:00:16 GMT
I honestly don't know. It's not one of the things that usually hits my radar, but I'll see what I can find out. However, it wouldn't surprise me. The countries listed are generally not considered to be friends of Israel, but it does say they are not 'automatically' granted citizenship or residency. That doesn't mean they are excluded from it, just that it's not an automatic grant. That is not a policy that is exclusive to Israel, there are many other countries who don't grant automatic citizenship when one marries a citizen, including the UK and the USA.Well I know that there are rules in any country! I wouldn't expect any country to let a couple marry this week and expect the spouse to be granted citizenship next week or an indefinite residency permit,that is silly. We do have our share of sham marriages so it's not something that I'm unaware of it happening. But we don't exclude people from any specific country purely on the grounds that they are citizens of that said country. I'm sure we also have some political enemies out there!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 15:02:12 GMT
There's far more to that than what Mr Al Fayed is saying or the media is reporting!
ETA and that has nothing to do with religion because if it did how come his brother was granted citizenship! They're both Egyptian!
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Post by BeckyTech on Aug 6, 2014 15:21:23 GMT
I-95, actually I remember reading in that book, Son of Hamas, that the Israelis did restrict Palestinian vehicle traffic on certain roads. Why? For the same reason the other restrictions are in place: the Palestinians would set up ambush points (fake disabled car and such) from which to kill or kidnap Israelis. Of course it's been some time since he wrote that book (and I read it) so things could have easily have changed in the interim.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 15:26:24 GMT
Uh huh...tell that to the Al Fayed family! I doubt that getting Israeli citizenship is any more complex for someone like me (non-Jewish) than it would be if I were to apply for citizenship in any other country. When I said it was more complex, all that means is it's not automatic as it is for a Jewish person who wants to immigrate here. But your statement goes to show how little you actually know about Israel. You said the other day that you consider Israel and the Jewish people to be two separate entities. You can consider anything you want, but the fact is, they are not. This is not a country, like the USA that separates Church and State. This country was founded as a JEWISH state. You can get all flipped out about that and consider it racist, separatist, discriminatory, or anything else you'd like to think, but it is what it is and it is not going to change. Believe me, on this point, Israel and the Jewish people seriously don't care how you think it should be. As a non-Jew I find it a little limiting at times, for instance, my DH and I could not marry in the State of Israel because I am not Jewish, but they do recognize the legality of marriages performed outside of the country. Should I feel discriminated against? Nope. I knew how it was and Israel has never made a secret of the fact that this is a JEWISH state....and I fully support their position. This country is good to their people...including me, and to be honest, it pisses me off when outsiders, who don't understand the culture, try to make us sound bad because we don't conform to what works in YOUR country. You really should take a look at your own county's history of class systems, and its current attitude toward immigration before you question ours. OK that's fine I understand that it's a Jewish state. With that in mind how do you explain that it isn't an apartheid state as some reports out there is accusing it of? I'm trying to understand why they are saying so. Not all of them are rubbish sites. I've read some Jewish/Israeli human rights sites too.....are they all lying? All I seem to be getting from you is comparison with other countries. I've heard 90% of people on here disagreeing with Middle Eastern/Islamic countries BECAUSE they have laws that are not comparable to our countries....by our countries I mean places like the UK/ USA/Canada/Australia/other European countries... add how many you want to the list. So why are the Islamic countries wrong to have their own laws based on religion? Please clarify what you mean that we should be looking at our attitude to immigration before I have the right to aquire the knowledge of another country's immigration laws?
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Post by lucyg on Aug 6, 2014 17:21:42 GMT
Uh huh...tell that to the Al Fayed family! I doubt that getting Israeli citizenship is any more complex for someone like me (non-Jewish) than it would be if I were to apply for citizenship in any other country. When I said it was more complex, all that means is it's not automatic as it is for a Jewish person who wants to immigrate here. But your statement goes to show how little you actually know about Israel. You said the other day that you consider Israel and the Jewish people to be two separate entities. You can consider anything you want, but the fact is, they are not. This is not a country, like the USA that separates Church and State. This country was founded as a JEWISH state. You can get all flipped out about that and consider it racist, separatist, discriminatory, or anything else you'd like to think, but it is what it is and it is not going to change. Believe me, on this point, Israel and the Jewish people seriously don't care how you think it should be. As a non-Jew I find it a little limiting at times, for instance, my DH and I could not marry in the State of Israel because I am not Jewish, but they do recognize the legality of marriages performed outside of the country. Should I feel discriminated against? Nope. I knew how it was and Israel has never made a secret of the fact that this is a JEWISH state....and I fully support their position. This country is good to their people...including me, and to be honest, it pisses me off when outsiders, who don't understand the culture, try to make us sound bad because we don't conform to what works in YOUR country. You really should take a look at your own county's history of class systems, and its current attitude toward immigration before you question ours. And I would like to add the reminder that Israel was founded specifically to be a safe haven for Jews when they had nowhere else in the world to go, and be safe. England also has a long history of anti-Semitism ... not just the Continent. It's not like they were welcoming those Holocaust survivors with open arms. Under the circumstances, I think that getting sniffy about the fact that Israel is a JEWISH nation (that does not persecute citizens and residents for being members of other religions) is way out of line.
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anniebygaslight
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Post by anniebygaslight on Aug 6, 2014 17:34:55 GMT
And I would like to add the reminder that Israel was founded specifically to be a safe haven for Jews when they had nowhere else in the world to go, and be safe. England also has a long history of anti-Semitism ... not just the Continent. It's not like they were welcoming those Holocaust survivors with open arms. You appear to have forgotten the Kindertransport, and that thousands of Jewish children were given homes in the UK, Nicholas Winton, and the fact that British troops, with Canadians, liberated Belsen.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 17:50:20 GMT
Oh never mind I-95. You don't need to answer my previous questions. I was actually learning something until the circle came round again to find fault with everything and everyone and in particular Britain.I'm pissed off with people putting words into my mouth. I'll just keep reading the sites that has info on there,good or bad and make my mind up from there.
It does make one wonder if one has touched a nerve though!
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Post by I-95 on Aug 6, 2014 17:52:00 GMT
Well, it's not just 'silly', there are countries who do grant automatic citizenship to spouses of citizens. Perhaps the difference is that Israel lists the countries they have issues with, and the policy doesn't say they are forever excluded from citizenship, just that it's not automatic. I'm sure y'all do have political enemies out there, but the truth is, unless you work for British Immigration, you have absolutely no clue who they do and don't discriminate against when it comes to granting citizenship. Just because they don't list specific countries doesn't mean they don't make it more difficult for citizens of those countries to get their papers. As far as I know the US doesn't have an official list of countries either but on a purely anecdotal basis, I have one brother who married a lovely German girl...green card issued within weeks of the marriage. Another brother married a lovely girl from the Philippines...18 months of paperwork before she was even allowed to enter the USA on a temporary resident's visa... neither SIL had criminal records, terrorist affiliations etc etc. but somewhere in there's a huge difference in the way they were treated.
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Post by lucyg on Aug 6, 2014 17:54:00 GMT
And I would like to add the reminder that Israel was founded specifically to be a safe haven for Jews when they had nowhere else in the world to go, and be safe. England also has a long history of anti-Semitism ... not just the Continent. It's not like they were welcoming those Holocaust survivors with open arms. You appear to have forgotten the Kindertransport, and that thousands of Jewish children were given homes in the UK, Nicholas Winton, and the fact that British troops, with Canadians, liberated Belsen. I haven't forgotten any of that, and it wasn't my intention to imply that the British people did nothing for the Jews of Europe. My stepmother spent several years in an English orphanage during the war. What I'm saying is that there were hundreds of thousands of displaced Jews after the war, and no one wanted to take more than a handful of them in. Not the Brits, not the Americans, not anyone. Many tried to return to their old homes in Eastern Europe but their villages were gone and/or the locals murdered them. (??!!) They needed a safe place to go where Jews were welcome and had at least a shot at protecting themselves. And sad to say, that wasn't going to be anywhere in Europe or the Americas.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 18:07:56 GMT
Just for info Lucy. I'm not in the habit of labeling anyone trying to learn and gain knowledge & understanding of somewhere or someone other than their own self as sniffy!
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Post by I-95 on Aug 6, 2014 18:10:21 GMT
I'll be the first to admit that a lot of what you write hits a nerve with me, because a lot of what you write does not come across as merely information gathering for the sake of interest. It comes across as information gathering to further prove, in your mind, that Israel is indeed an apartheid State who is hell bent on denying the poor downtrodden Arabs/Muslims from enjoying a wonderful life in Israel. Now you can deny that until you're blue in the face, but people who are just asking questions because they're curious, don't go about it the same way you do. When you posted all the reasons that suggested Israel was, indeed, an apartheid State, I came back and refuted those reasons, then asked you specifically if that didn't satisfy your alleged on-the-fence position. You said no, you'd need a lot more before you could decide. Either you're incredibly indecisive, or you're just going to keep searching until you do find someone who will validate your suspicions that we are a bad and evil country.
As far as finding fault with Britain, do you not understand human nature at all? If you keep poking, insinuating my country is treating people badly, discriminating against them etc etc. why should you be surprised when I point out a few faults your country has? And please note that every time I do that, you jump to the defensive...'well we don't discriminate' 'There's more to the Al Fayed story than the papers say' so apparently you don't like your country being taken to task over anything, so WTH should I? But you're right, I no longer think your questions are just for information, I mean, who else cares what Israel's immigration policies are towards Yemen, or Iraq? That's going way past curiosity, so I'm done with the topic. I'm pretty sure I know where you stand.
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Post by I-95 on Aug 6, 2014 18:17:07 GMT
Just for info Lucy. I'm not in the habit of labeling anyone trying to learn and gain knowledge & understanding of somewhere or someone other than their own self as sniffy! I like sniffy. I thought sniffy was good. I like the word.....sniffy....I think that one's a keeper. Thanks Lucy
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Post by lucyg on Aug 6, 2014 18:21:31 GMT
Just for info Lucy. I'm not in the habit of labeling anyone trying to learn and gain knowledge & understanding of somewhere or someone other than their own self as sniffy! You labeled Israel an apartheid nation.
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Deleted
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Oct 8, 2024 22:30:26 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 18:29:47 GMT
I'll be the first to admit that a lot of what you write hits a nerve with me, because a lot of what you write does not come across as merely information gathering for the sake of interest. It comes across as information gathering to further prove, in your mind, that Israel is indeed an apartheid State who is hell bent on denying the poor downtrodden Arabs/Muslims from enjoying a wonderful life in Israel. Now you can deny that until you're blue in the face, but people who are just asking questions because they're curious, don't go about it the same way you do. When you posted all the reasons that suggested Israel was, indeed, an apartheid State, I came back and refuted those reasons, then asked you specifically if that didn't satisfy your alleged on-the-fence position. You said no, you'd need a lot more before you could decide. Either you're incredibly indecisive, or you're just going to keep searching until you do find someone who will validate your suspicions that we are a bad and evil country. As far as finding fault with Britain, do you not understand human nature at all? If you keep poking, insinuating my country is treating people badly, discriminating against them etc etc. why should you be surprised when I point out a few faults your country has? And please note that every time I do that, you jump to the defensive...'well we don't discriminate' 'There's more to the Al Fayed story than the papers say' so apparently you don't like your country being taken to task over anything, so WTH should I? But you're right, I no longer think your questions are just for information, I mean, who else cares what Israel's immigration policies are towards Yemen, or Iraq? That's going way past curiosity, so I'm done with the topic. I'm pretty sure I know where you stand. Ok that's fine but you couldn't be further from the truth. I've been told time and time again that whatever we've ( as Brits) posted has been pro Palestinian,Anti Israeli, sucking on the teat of Hamas, you name it everything and anything has been torn to shreds and thrown at us, me in particular. Deciding to ask a few questions to clarify the info I find.....'cause you know, that info has already been torn to shreds as being wrong.... meets with the same kind of attitude....Ah now she thinks she's superior, now she thinks she's going to catch me out,oh wait I'll answer that with some inaccurate info about her own country......see how it comes about. We can never win. I was asked a question about the apartheid by Becky. I tried to answer it as best as I could with the info I had in hand. You contributed a bit more by answering questions that I has not been able to confirm. That needed further research but yet you expect me to come back a couple of hours later and confirm yes or no. By not doing so you ASSUME I have a certain agenda. Well you're wrong and I've just had about enough.
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Deleted
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Oct 8, 2024 22:30:26 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 18:32:01 GMT
Just for info Lucy. I'm not in the habit of labeling anyone trying to learn and gain knowledge & understanding of somewhere or someone other than their own self as sniffy! You labeled Israel an apartheid nation. I did nothing of the sort and you know it.
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BarbaraUK
Drama Llama
Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
Posts: 5,961
Location: England UK
Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Aug 6, 2014 18:49:19 GMT
It's not like they were welcoming those Holocaust survivors with open arms. To be fair Lucyg, at that particular time the United Kingdom (not just England) could not have afforded to take in absolutely every victim or displaced person in Europe and would not have been able to cope with a massive influx of people! We were totally broke coming out of that war, housing stock had been greatly depleted due to bombing - and not just in London but all around the country - so we hardly had housing even to accommodate our returning soldiers. Add to that mix that jobs were very scarce for a long time after the war. We could hardly support our own let alone a great influx of others and were on food rationing etc., until 1952 or thereabouts. Times were exceedingly hard for people here for a very long time. In spite of that we, and other countries, contributed to and worked hard and long to try to re-establish the European countries that had suffered so much so that things could be at least improved for thousands of displaced people. Just as a bit of information - the UK commemorates a National Holocaust Memorial Day on the 27th January each year.
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Post by lucyg on Aug 6, 2014 19:05:05 GMT
You labeled Israel an apartheid nation. I did nothing of the sort and you know it. I'm sorry. I meant to say, you linked a professor who likes to use the apartheid word, then posted a long explanation/defense of his opinions. When I-95 refuted his points one by one, you said more information was needed. You also redefined the word apartheid back to its original Afrikaans definition, rather than using the commonly-accepted-in-today's-world meaning, which in my book is an attempt to make the word more palatable. Note: "experts" who use the words apartheid or genocide are not ever neutral sources. It felt to me (and I sincerely apologize if I am wrong) that you were trying to say apartheid without having to come right out and say apartheid.
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Post by lucyg on Aug 6, 2014 19:07:37 GMT
It's not like they were welcoming those Holocaust survivors with open arms. To be fair Lucyg, at that particular time the United Kingdom (not just England) could not have afforded to take in absolutely every victim or displaced person in Europe and would not have been able to cope with a massive influx of people! We were totally broke coming out of that war, housing stock had been greatly depleted due to bombing - and not just in London but all around the country - so we hardly had housing even to accommodate our returning soldiers. Add to that mix that jobs were very scarce for a long time after the war. We could hardly support our own let alone a great influx of others and were on food rationing etc., until 1952 or thereabouts. Times were exceedingly hard for people here for a very long time. In spite of that we, and other countries, contributed to and worked hard and long to try to re-establish the European countries that had suffered so much so that things could be at least improved for thousands of displaced people. Just as a bit of information - the UK commemorates a National Holocaust Memorial Day on the 27th January each year. Barbara, I don't disagree with a single word of that. My point was that most of Europe's Jews literally had nowhere else to go. No country was willing and/or able to take them in in the numbers needed. They sat in DP camps for years before the floodgates opened in Palestine/Israel.
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