tduby1
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Jun 27, 2014 18:32:45 GMT
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Post by tduby1 on Jun 27, 2017 15:46:30 GMT
I don't know the answer. I don't know if a blanket apology would do any good but I can't imagine it would do any harm and the sentiments above really, really do not sit well with me. It seems as if you believe the onus should be on the victims to forgive but they don't warrant any kind of acknowledgement that they were wronged. How do you forgive with no apologies being offered anyway? that's pretty much the point of forgiveness. True forgiveness doesn't require an apology. It isn't dependent upon anyone else's actions. Perhaps for you. For me forgiveness certainly requires an admission of wrong doing.
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MsKnit
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Post by MsKnit on Jun 27, 2017 19:29:48 GMT
We apologize by studying and remembering so we do not repeat. And We apologize by teaching our children to good, decent, caring people. We also stand up and fight for others to have equal rights. We use our white privilege to further a move to equality. We listen to the experiences of others and believe what we don't understand. We push for change in institutionalized racism, sexism, ageism, etc... We quit paying lip service and take action.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 16, 2017 13:48:43 GMT
mollycoddleThis is why I say I don't think everyone recognizes the need to be better people.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jul 16, 2017 15:32:42 GMT
How would this new apology be any different than the one issued previously?
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 16, 2017 15:37:05 GMT
How would this new apology be any different than the one issued previously? I am unsure. Do you have any ideas?
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jul 16, 2017 15:40:59 GMT
How would this new apology be any different than the one issued previously? I am unsure. Do you have any ideas? No. I don't think a new apology would be any more effective than the last one at having any meaningful impact.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 16, 2017 15:47:22 GMT
I am unsure. Do you have any ideas? No. I don't think a new apology would be any more effective than the last one at having any meaningful impact. What are your thoughts on the new discovery at Monticello? Maryland was a breeder state so it shouldn't come as a surprise but with the record keeping and the science that is available now I think every black person could get a DNA test and it be determined what port they originated from or what plantation their ancestors worked for free.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jul 16, 2017 16:14:25 GMT
No. I don't think a new apology would be any more effective than the last one at having any meaningful impact. What are your thoughts on the new discovery at Monticello? Maryland was a breeder state so it shouldn't come as a surprise but with the record keeping and the science that is available now I think every black person could get a DNA test and it be determined what port they originated from or what plantation their ancestors worked for free. I think you'll find record keeping varied tremendously during that era. You'll find the larger, wealthier plantations in particular will keep much better records than the smaller farms which you really can't even call a plantation. I really doubt DNA is going to be able to determine which plantation each of their ancestors worked - it will depend tremendously if their ancestors were relatively stable in how long and how many ancestors worked in a particular area and probably most important if they were unlucky enough to be in those poor areas where they were bought and sold multiple times. The port would depend on how many years your ancestors were in America. I've watched a number of the genealogy shows and they struggle tremendously with African American histories. The science just doesn't yield the kind of detail you're talking about. And the records are hit and miss. They're lucky if they can trace one line with any kind of assurance. I have 32 ancestors of that era, so the vast majority of their history was loss in poor records.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 16, 2017 17:05:58 GMT
Nothing I've read suggests that the record keeping isn't there. Certainly larger plantations didn't have good record keeping because they didn't have enough enslaved Africans to warrant cataloging. SmithsonianForced Migration Digital LibraryThere is an interesting read called Bound for America that details the forced migration of enslaved AfricansRegarding Ports...thats not the research I've found This comprehensive research paper states that the Atlantic slave trade resulted in the forced migration of an estimated 11 million Africans to the Americas. Only 9 million are thought to e survived the passage, and many more died in the early years of captivity. Historical accounts indicate that virtually all enslaved Africans brought to North America came from either West or West Central Africa. A recent comparison of mtDNA sequences from 1148 African Americans living in the US with a database of African mtDNA sequences showed that more than 55% of the US lineages have a West African ancestor, while fewer than 41% came from West Central or South West Africa. In North America, different constellations of African groups were brought to various staging areas. Among the important staging areas for the arrival and distribution of enslaved Africans were the ports of Savannah, GA and Charleston, SC. Estimates of the origin of enslaved Africans received at these sites are presented in the figure below, with the largest African regional contributions coming from West Central Africa (40%; contemporary Angola, the Congos, Equatorial Guinea, and Gabon), and the West African regions of Senegambia (23%; contemporary Senegal, Gambia, and northern Guinea), and Upper Guinea (18%; contemporary Guinea and Sierra Leone and northwestern Liberia). Africans in the Carolina coast region were intentionally mixed to reduce the possibilities for successful revolts and to facilitate their assimilation into plantation-slave society. The contemporary Gullah/Geechee culture emerged from these Africans.
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PaperAngel
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Post by PaperAngel on Jul 16, 2017 17:38:50 GMT
...Do you think America should issue a blanket apology to black people? Personally I'd be more interested in monetary compensation... So, all the threads you start to post articles & declare all white people racist, weakly justified by the results of last year's election, is with the goal of monetary compensation? This is ironic, since money was the reason for the slave trade.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 16, 2017 18:04:14 GMT
...Do you think America should issue a blanket apology to black people? Personally I'd be more interested in monetary compensation... So, all the threads you start to post articles & declare all white people racist, weakly justified by the results of last year's election, is with the goal of monetary compensation? This is ironic, since money was the reason for the slave trade. Wow. Is racism weakly justified by the election or are the articles themselves proof that racism exists. I try to post a lot of news articles to balance out the think pieces. And my goal isn't monetary compensation. Unless of course the peas want to fund an all black community for me to head up?
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PaperAngel
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Post by PaperAngel on Jul 16, 2017 20:47:28 GMT
So, all the threads you start to post articles & declare all white people racist, weakly justified by the results of last year's election, is with the goal of monetary compensation? This is ironic, since money was the reason for the slave trade. Wow. Is racism weakly justified by the election or are the articles themselves proof that racism exists. I try to post a lot of news articles to balance out the think pieces. And my goal isn't monetary compensation. Unless of course the peas want to fund an all black community for me to head up? Neither election results nor unsubstantiated articles/inconclusive studies "prove" racism. You assume no one thinks it exists, except you. Sadly, people have experienced or witnessed racism (plus sexism, elitism, ageism, & others forms of discrimination) firsthand. Given money & power motivated African tribal chiefs & European royalty to start slavery & wealthy Americans to continue the practice here, it's surprising you desire the same. People risked their lives to end segregation & continue to fight for equality. While you chose to define & judge people by their skin color, many people of all races & ethnicities respect everyone as individuals just as Dr. King dreamed. We work together to not only mend race relations, but address other forms of discrimination in our society. Please consider joining us...
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 17, 2017 10:27:48 GMT
Wow. Is racism weakly justified by the election or are the articles themselves proof that racism exists. I try to post a lot of news articles to balance out the think pieces. And my goal isn't monetary compensation. Unless of course the peas want to fund an all black community for me to head up? Neither election results nor unsubstantiated articles/inconclusive studies "prove" racism. You assume no one thinks it exists, except you. Sadly, people have experienced or witnessed racism (plus sexism, elitism, ageism, & others forms of discrimination) firsthand. Given money & power motivated African tribal chiefs & European royalty to start slavery & wealthy Americans to continue the practice here, it's surprising you desire the same. People risked their lives to end segregation & continue to fight for equality. While you chose to define & judge people by their skin color, many people of all races & ethnicities respect everyone as individuals just as Dr. King dreamed. We work together to not only mend race relations, but address other forms of discrimination in our society. Please consider joining us... So the greed of African tribal chiefs is what began the forced migration of my ancestors. "So its surprising you desire the same" This is such a sick/ abusive sentiment. "While you chose to define & judge people by their skin color, many people of all races & ethnicities respect everyone as individuals just as Dr. King dreamed." Many people also continue perpetuating the unfair treatment of black bodies. Do you think we are living Dr. Kings dream? You shouldn't speak his name until you've done something to ensure his dream is moving along. He isn't pleased with you.
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Post by miominmio on Jul 17, 2017 11:21:23 GMT
I was trying to research if I was right about Recy Taylor accusers offering her monetary compensation after the second jury found them not guilty but I gave up after finding this. The apology came more than seven decades after her rape. I winced when I read she was 91. Imagine living that long after experiencing that type of injustice? How much of her life did she think about what happened to her? Do you think America should issue a blanket apology to black people? Personally I'd be more interested in monetary compensation. Mary TurnerGeorgetown University Genealogy Link
Detailed AccountsTo answer your question specifically, I think America and Africa and Europe should offer apologies to the descendants of slaves. Africans were also involved in the enslavement of their own people for western slave trade. Having said that, Europeans owe a hell of an apology to native Mexicans, central, and south Americans while we're at it. I don't believe in monetary compensation. At the same time, I would like Africans, Arabs and Asians to apologise for the horrors they inflicted on us Europeans..... the thing is, you' be hard pressed to find an ethnic group that hasn't at some point in time, done something horrible to Another group
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PaperAngel
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Post by PaperAngel on Jul 17, 2017 15:07:37 GMT
Neither election results nor unsubstantiated articles/inconclusive studies "prove" racism. You assume no one thinks it exists, except you. Sadly, people have experienced or witnessed racism (plus sexism, elitism, ageism, & others forms of discrimination) firsthand. Given money & power motivated African tribal chiefs & European royalty to start slavery & wealthy Americans to continue the practice here, it's surprising you desire the same. People risked their lives to end segregation & continue to fight for equality. While you chose to define & judge people by their skin color, many people of all races & ethnicities respect everyone as individuals just as Dr. King dreamed. We work together to not only mend race relations, but address other forms of discrimination in our society. Please consider joining us... So the greed of African tribal chiefs is what began the forced migration of my ancestors. "So its surprising you desire the same" This is such a sick/ abusive sentiment. "While you chose to define & judge people by their skin color, many people of all races & ethnicities respect everyone as individuals just as Dr. King dreamed." Many people also continue perpetuating the unfair treatment of black bodies. Do you think we are living Dr. Kings dream? You shouldn't speak his name until you've done something to ensure his dream is moving along. He isn't pleased with you. It is a fact that African tribal chiefs & European royalty started the slave trade. You claiming to want "monetary compensation" & "a black community to head up" is a desire for money & power that shows your hypocrisy. Contrary to your belief, you do not speak for all black people. Everyone not living under a rock recognizes that society has still not fulfilled Dr. King's dream. IMHO it is people, like you, who only view & seek to divide others by their skin color that impedes progress. Please share your specific actions to improve the lives of black people & race relations. Also, please provide proof to support your statement that I, a person whom you've never met, have done nothing promote equality. Please consider taking a class on the work/message of Dr. King. I hope that you'll redirect your passion toward working with people of various races & ethnicities to fulfill his dream.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 20, 2017 13:07:10 GMT
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Dec 30, 2017 12:47:57 GMT
I was trying to research if I was right about Recy Taylor accusers offering her monetary compensation after the second jury found them not guilty but I gave up after finding this. The apology came more than seven decades after her rape. I winced when I read she was 91. Imagine living that long after experiencing that type of injustice? How much of her life did she think about what happened to her? Do you think America should issue a blanket apology to black people? Personally I'd be more interested in monetary compensation. Mary TurnerGeorgetown University Genealogy Link
Detailed Accounts
Recy Taylor died a couple days ago just before turning 98. The opinions shared throughout this thread should sadden more than just African American women. mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/29/obituaries/recy-taylor-alabama-rape-victim-dead.amp.html
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Dec 30, 2017 12:52:06 GMT
Recy Taylor, a 24-year-old African-American sharecropper, was walking home from church in Abbeville, Ala., on the night of Sept. 3, 1944, when she was abducted and raped by six white men.
The crime was extensively covered in the black press and an early catalyst for the civil rights movement. The N.A.A.C.P. sent a young activist from its Montgomery, Ala., chapter named Rosa Parks to investigate. African-Americans around the country demanded that the men be prosecuted.
But the attack, like many involving black victims during the Jim Crow era in the South, never went to trial. Two all-white, all-male grand juries refused to indict the men, even though one of them had confessed.
Decades passed before the case gained renewed attention, with the publication in 2010 of “At the Dark End of the Street: Black Women, Rape, and Resistance — a New History of the Civil Rights Movement From Rosa Parks to the Rise of Black Power,” by the historian Danielle L. McGuire. The book prompted an official apology in 2011 to Mrs. Taylor by the Alabama Legislature, which called the failure to prosecute her attackers “morally abhorrent and repugnant.”
Mrs. Taylor died in Abbeville on Thursday, three weeks after the release of “The Rape of Recy Taylor,” a documentary about the crime. She was 97. The death was confirmed by her brother, Robert Lee Corbitt.
“Many ladies got raped,” Mrs. Taylor said in the film, interviewed by its director, Nancy Buirski. “The peoples there — they seemed like they wasn’t concerned about what happened to me, and they didn’t try and do nothing about it. I can’t help but tell the truth of what they done to me.”
Born on Dec. 31, 1919, to a family of sharecroppers in Abbeville, in southeastern Alabama, Recy (pronounced “REE-see”) Corbitt found herself caring for six younger siblings after their mother died when she was 17.
On the night of the attack, she had gone to Rock Hill Holiness Church for a Pentecostal service of singing and praying and was walking home along a country highway bounded by peanut farms. A friend, Fannie Daniel, 61, and Ms. Daniel’s 18-year-old son, West, were with her. They noticed a green Chevrolet passing by several times. Eventually the car stopped, and seven young white men, armed with guns and knives, stepped out. One of them, Herbert Lovett, the oldest in the group, ordered the three to halt, and then pointed a shotgun at them when they ignored him.
The men forced Mrs. Taylor into the car at gunpoint and drove her to a grove of pine trees on the side of the road, where they forced her to disrobe. She begged to be allowed to go, citing her husband and their 3-year-old daughter. But Mr. Lovett was unmoved. Ordering her to “act just like you do with your husband or I’ll cut your damn throat,” he and five other men raped her. (A seventh young man, Billy Howerton, said later that he did not take part because he knew Mrs. Taylor.)
Dumped out of the car, Mrs. Taylor removed her blindfold and stumbled toward safety. Her father, Benny Corbitt, had learned of the abduction and gone searching for her. Soon the county sheriff, George H. Gamble, arrived.
Mrs. Taylor told Sheriff Gamble that she could not identify her assailants, but her description of the car matched only one vehicle in the county, that of Hugo Wilson. When the sheriff returned with Mr. Wilson and his father, Mrs. Taylor identified Mr. Wilson as one of her attackers, as did the teenage friend.
Questioned at the county jail, Mr. Wilson acknowledged that he and five others — Mr. Lovett, Dillard York, Luther Lee, Willie Joe Culpepper and Robert Gamble — “all had intercourse with her,” but insisted that they had paid her and that it was not rape. The sheriff sent Mr. Wilson home.
The next evening, Mrs. Taylor faced new threats: White vigilantes set her porch on fire. The following day, she and her husband, Willie Guy Taylor, and their daughter, Joyce Lee, moved in with her father and siblings. Mr. Corbitt, her father, would sleep in a chinaberry tree in the backyard, watching over the family while cradling a double-barreled shotgun, going inside to sleep only after the sun rose.
As word of the crime spread through Alabama’s black community the N.A.A.C.P.’s Montgomery chapter sent Mrs. Parks, who had spent much of her childhood in Abbeville, to interview Mrs. Taylor.
The deputy sheriff, Lewey Corbitt (not a close relation), was not happy about Mrs. Parks’s presence. He drove past the house repeatedly and then forcibly ejected her. “I don’t want any troublemakers here in Abbeville,” he warned her. “If you don’t go, I’ll lock you up.”
Mindful of the outrage surrounding the case of the Scottsboro Boys — nine black teenagers who had been wrongly accused of raping two white women in 1931 — the county prosecutor took care to provide a semblance of equal justice. But it was an empty gesture.
When the grand jury met on Oct. 3 and 4, 1944, Mrs. Taylor’s loved ones were the only witnesses. None of the men had been arrested, and there had not been a police lineup, so Mrs. Taylor could not identify her attackers.
The grand jury declined to indict the men. Word spread through union halls, churches, barbershops, pool halls and, significantly, through the black press. “Alabama Whites Attack Woman; Not Punished,” declared a headline in The Pittsburgh Courier, an African-American newspaper.
It was the final year of World War II, and some blacks likened their struggle for equal rights to the fight against fascism. Eugene Gordon, a black writer for The Daily Worker, a Communist newspaper in New York, interviewed Mrs. Taylor and told his readers, “The raping of Mrs. Recy Taylor was a fascist-like brutal violation of her personal rights as a woman and as a citizen of democracy.”
The governor, who was a mentor of the segregationist future governor George C. Wallace, came under considerable pressure as African-American activists like W. E. B. DuBois and Mary Church Terrell and writers like Countee Cullen and Langston Hughes took up Mrs. Taylor’s cause.
The governor sent investigators, who found that Sheriff Gamble had lied about having arrested the men. By then, four of the seven men had admitted to having had sex with Mrs. Taylor, but they insisted that she had participated willingly.
One of the men, Willie Joe Culpepper, however, backed up Mrs. Taylor’s account, saying she had been coerced. “She was crying and asking us to let her go home to her husband and baby,” he said.
Despite the confession, a second grand jury, on Feb. 14, 1945, refused to hand up an indictment.
The civil rights activists eventually moved on, and Mrs. Taylor faded into obscurity. Fearing reprisals, she moved to Montgomery for a few months with help from Mrs. Parks. Eventually the family moved to Central Florida, where Mrs. Taylor picked oranges.
She and Mr. Taylor separated, and he died in the early 1960s. Their only child died in a car crash in 1967. Mrs. Taylor had two subsequent partners, both of whom died. She lived for many years in Winter Haven, Fla., before failing health prompted her relatives to bring her back to Abbeville.
In addition to her brother, she is survived by two sisters, Lillie Kinsey and Mary Murry; a granddaughter; and several great-grandchildren.
The publication of Ms. McGuire’s book led to apologies from the mayor of Abbeville and from the county and state governments in 2011. The Alabama Legislature’s apology was formally presented to Mrs. Taylor on Mother’s Day that year at the Pentecostal church, now known as Abbeville Memorial Church of God in Christ, where she had worshiped the night of the crime.
In Ms. Buirski’s film, Mrs. Taylor recalled how she could have easily been killed. “The Lord was just with me that night,” she said.
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Post by peasapie on Dec 30, 2017 14:25:55 GMT
You know Olan, when I was in college in the 1970s, many of my black friends were receiving financial aid based on their race alone. I didn't qualify even though my parents made less money than many of my friends' parents and we had more kids. I had to work long hours and try to stay awake in class to get my degree, while many of my black friends were lounging in the student center playing pool and socializing. It was explained to me that this affirmative action in financing and college acceptance was to level the playing field for African Americans whose decendents were brought to this country against their will and enslaved after being here. I didn't think it was "fair," but I accepted it.
My grandparents were immigrants who received nothing but labels of WOP and dago. They worked long hours and had an driving principle of making life better for your children than it was for you. Over several generations, we've gone from being menial laborers to attorneys, doctors, engineers, business owners, and school principals in our family.
Do you really think apologies are what will help the African American community? I think that sort of things just makes people toss about in their own feelings of injustice from the past, rather than moving forward and helping their families and their communities to improve themselves.
This may not be an opinion often voiced publicly, but I know there are many who feel as I do. It's just not PC to say so when this topic arises.
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Sarah*H
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Post by Sarah*H on Dec 30, 2017 15:02:22 GMT
The US government could apologize 1000 times and it wouldn't do anything to change the sad reality that a good number of US citizens don't see any need to apologize and that the apology itself would probably make their racial resentment more entrenched. I've come to believe that our country will never have a true reckoning that our system was built on the backs of slaves. We've got to deal with the world as it is, not as it should be and the truth is, too many people are too selfish, too bigoted or too focused on their own perceived slights, sorrows and miseries to offer true compassion or understanding for the paths others have walked. We're ignorant of our own history and resentful when asked to confront it. I've got no pat, easy answer for this one. An apology should mean something, it should indicate true remorse or a change of heart or a change in policy and I don't think any representative of our government can legitimately offer than on behalf of the American people. And given the current state of the populace, I honestly think we might have another civil war if the federal government legitimately pursued reparations. Maybe that's what needed.
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mallie
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Post by mallie on Dec 30, 2017 16:28:19 GMT
Sure, go ahead and compenstate monetarily. I am, amongst other things, black, Native American, Irish, and a woman. So based on the oppression suffered by those 4 demographics, I could be in for a windfall.
But, no thanks. Sure, money is good. But unless it is coming from the people who directly oppressed and exploited my people and me, all I am doing is forcing bystanders to pay the bill. What's the point of that. I just don't get it. Seems like an exercise in greed. And maybe, just maybe, those bystanders are also people who have been oppressed and exploited.
ANd how do you figure out who is due and how much? Seems to me there is much better use of time and energy solving race issues.
Moreover, I can also see reparations backfiring in a serious way. I can easily see bystanders getting furious about being forced to pay for what their ancestors did. Hell, I didn't have to pay my mother's medical bills because as her daughter I am not legally liable for them. So why should I have to pay for what some of my ancestors MAY have done to others (including othres of my ancestors). I can see that fury transmogrifying into hatred. I can also see that a consequence would be, " Well, shut up now. You got paid off. So shut up about race."
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scrappinmama
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Post by scrappinmama on Dec 31, 2017 3:27:09 GMT
I honestly don't think an apology or compensation would help. Compensation won't change the fact that there are still racist people in this country. I know I probably sound so pessimistic, but this last year has made me lose faith in our country and our citizens. People knew what Trump was, knew he had a history of racism, knew his opinion on women, Hispanics, etc, and they still voted for him.
If I thought compensation would help improve race relations, I would be all in for it. But I think there are enough people who either live in denial of our history, don't care, or who flat out have hate in their hearts for anyone who doesn't share their heritage.
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Post by #notLauren on Dec 31, 2017 4:14:14 GMT
I was trying to research if I was right about Recy Taylor accusers offering her monetary compensation after the second jury found them not guilty but I gave up after finding this. The apology came more than seven decades after her rape. I winced when I read she was 91. Imagine living that long after experiencing that type of injustice? How much of her life did she think about what happened to her? Do you think America should issue a blanket apology to black people? Personally I'd be more interested in monetary compensation. Mary TurnerGeorgetown University Genealogy Link
Detailed Accounts
Absolutely not. You want money? Get off your ass and earn it.
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61redhead
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Post by 61redhead on Dec 31, 2017 5:40:09 GMT
I can't understand why someone who has never enslaved another person should be required to pay reparations to someone who has never been enslaved. There are a lot of black people in America who are not descendants of slaves.
Forgiveness is not for the benefit of the oppressor. Forgiveness is for the benefit of the one who was wronged. As long as you keep the hurt and the anger inside, it will continue to fester and make you miserable. Only through forgiveness of the wrongs committed against one can one begin to heal.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Dec 31, 2017 14:40:30 GMT
You know Olan, when I was in college in the 1970s, many of my black friends were receiving financial aid based on their race alone. I didn't qualify even though my parents made less money than many of my friends' parents and we had more kids. I had to work long hours and try to stay awake in class to get my degree, while many of my black friends were lounging in the student center playing pool and socializing. It was explained to me that this affirmative action in financing and college acceptance was to level the playing field for African Americans whose decendents were brought to this country against their will and enslaved after being here. I didn't think it was "fair," but I accepted it. My grandparents were immigrants who received nothing but labels of WOP and dago. They worked long hours and had an driving principle of making life better for your children than it was for you. Over several generations, we've gone from being menial laborers to attorneys, doctors, engineers, business owners, and school principals in our family. Do you really think apologies are what will help the African American community? I think that sort of things just makes people toss about in their own feelings of injustice from the past, rather than moving forward and helping their families and their communities to improve themselves. This may not be an opinion often voiced publicly, but I know there are many who feel as I do. It's just not PC to say so when this topic arises. Black people are working hard to improve our communities and the futures of our children. Think of all we've accomplished in spite of the way we've been treated in this country. No one can say black people haven't made amazing strides in spite of everything. What have white people done to earn their position in America? Who built this country? How can you somehow believe it's fair that people who did the back breaking work of building this country to never receive any repayment for that work when we know how generational wealth works? Edit: Have you noticed that black women are made to take responsibility for the progress of their community meanwhile white women keep producing white men without having to answer for what they are doing to make the world better. Peas constantly ask me what I am doing to defeat racism not acknowledging how counterproductive their attitudes are. Think of all the things wrong with the American government at this very moment and tell me where you guys have taken even a morsel of personal responsibility
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Dec 31, 2017 14:41:23 GMT
I can't understand why someone who has never enslaved another person should be required to pay reparations to someone who has never been enslaved. There are a lot of black people in America who are not descendants of slaves. Forgiveness is not for the benefit of the oppressor. Forgiveness is for the benefit of the one who was wronged. As long as you keep the hurt and the anger inside, it will continue to fester and make you miserable. Only through forgiveness of the wrongs committed against one can one begin to heal. Do you know how many descendants of enslaved Africans there are though?
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Dec 31, 2017 14:41:49 GMT
I was trying to research if I was right about Recy Taylor accusers offering her monetary compensation after the second jury found them not guilty but I gave up after finding this. The apology came more than seven decades after her rape. I winced when I read she was 91. Imagine living that long after experiencing that type of injustice? How much of her life did she think about what happened to her? Do you think America should issue a blanket apology to black people? Personally I'd be more interested in monetary compensation. Mary TurnerGeorgetown University Genealogy Link
Detailed Accounts
Absolutely not. You want money? Get off your ass and earn it. Just like all the white men in this country did right?
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Olan
Pearl Clutcher
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Posts: 4,053
Jul 13, 2014 21:23:27 GMT
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Post by Olan on Dec 31, 2017 15:01:20 GMT
Sure, go ahead and compenstate monetarily. I am, amongst other things, black, Native American, Irish, and a woman. So based on the oppression suffered by those 4 demographics, I could be in for a windfall. But, no thanks. Sure, money is good. But unless it is coming from the people who directly oppressed and exploited my people and me, all I am doing is forcing bystanders to pay the bill. What's the point of that. I just don't get it. Seems like an exercise in greed. And maybe, just maybe, those bystanders are also people who have been oppressed and exploited. ANd how do you figure out who is due and how much? Seems to me there is much better use of time and energy solving race issues. Moreover, I can also see reparations backfiring in a serious way. I can easily see bystanders getting furious about being forced to pay for what their ancestors did. Hell, I didn't have to pay my mother's medical bills because as her daughter I am not legally liable for them. So why should I have to pay for what some of my ancestors MAY have done to others (including othres of my ancestors). I can see that fury transmogrifying into hatred. I can also see that a consequence would be, " Well, shut up now. You got paid off. So shut up about race." nypost.com/2017/12/19/elderly-nazi-guard-says-jail-sentence-violates-his-right-to-life/Bystanders can use their ancestors money. An exercise is greed to get what's owed to your ancestors? Wow that's an interesting concept. Quilts (or guns) get passed down but the value of my ancestors work means nothing in 2017. If in 2017 I am still x4 more likely to die in childbirth than you why should I have to pay taxes? I am essentially funding my own mistreatment!! I'd take a couple tax free years in lieu of the money the government owes my ancestors *shrugs* If you are a Christian what do you think God thinks about chattel slavery?
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Post by peasapie on Dec 31, 2017 16:59:12 GMT
You know Olan, when I was in college in the 1970s, many of my black friends were receiving financial aid based on their race alone. I didn't qualify even though my parents made less money than many of my friends' parents and we had more kids. I had to work long hours and try to stay awake in class to get my degree, while many of my black friends were lounging in the student center playing pool and socializing. It was explained to me that this affirmative action in financing and college acceptance was to level the playing field for African Americans whose decendents were brought to this country against their will and enslaved after being here. I didn't think it was "fair," but I accepted it. My grandparents were immigrants who received nothing but labels of WOP and dago. They worked long hours and had an driving principle of making life better for your children than it was for you. Over several generations, we've gone from being menial laborers to attorneys, doctors, engineers, business owners, and school principals in our family. Do you really think apologies are what will help the African American community? I think that sort of things just makes people toss about in their own feelings of injustice from the past, rather than moving forward and helping their families and their communities to improve themselves. This may not be an opinion often voiced publicly, but I know there are many who feel as I do. It's just not PC to say so when this topic arises. Black people are working hard to improve our communities and the futures of our children. Think of all we've accomplished in spite of the way we've been treated in this country. No one can say black people haven't made amazing strides in spite of everything. What have white people done to earn their position in America? Who built this country? How can you somehow believe it's fair that people who did the back breaking work of building this country to never receive any repayment for that work when we know how generational wealth works? Edit: Have you noticed that black women are made to take responsibility for the progress of their community meanwhile white women keep producing white men without having to answer for what they are doing to make the world better. Peas constantly ask me what I am doing to defeat racism not acknowledging how counterproductive their attitudes are. Think of all the things wrong with the American government at this very moment and tell me where you guys have taken even a morsel of personal responsibility My Italian American ancestors built much of this country. Laborers on roads, bricklayers, stone workers. I know Asian people feel the same way. Believe it or not, this country was built by many different ethnicities. I have not noticed black women being singled out for responsibility for their community's progress, no. But speaking of women, I can tell you that BOTH my grandmothers raised their families without the support of husbands, during the Great Depression.One grandfather died young and the other left a wife and 8 kids for another woman. Their kids all had to quit school by grades 5-7 in order to support their families. That instilled an ethic in both my parents that their children WOULD be educated. No one said sorry to my great grandparents for treating them badly when they arrived here and for not giving them jobs because at that time people didn't like what they called greaseballs. It's easy to villainize people you don't know; much harder to do so when you know about their lives.
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Olan
Pearl Clutcher
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Posts: 4,053
Jul 13, 2014 21:23:27 GMT
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Post by Olan on Dec 31, 2017 17:26:18 GMT
Black people are working hard to improve our communities and the futures of our children. Think of all we've accomplished in spite of the way we've been treated in this country. No one can say black people haven't made amazing strides in spite of everything. What have white people done to earn their position in America? Who built this country? How can you somehow believe it's fair that people who did the back breaking work of building this country to never receive any repayment for that work when we know how generational wealth works? Edit: Have you noticed that black women are made to take responsibility for the progress of their community meanwhile white women keep producing white men without having to answer for what they are doing to make the world better. Peas constantly ask me what I am doing to defeat racism not acknowledging how counterproductive their attitudes are. Think of all the things wrong with the American government at this very moment and tell me where you guys have taken even a morsel of personal responsibility My Italian American ancestors built much of this country. Laborers on roads, bricklayers, stone workers. I know Asian people feel the same way. Believe it or not, this country was built by many different ethnicities.I have not noticed black women being singled out for responsibility for their community's progress, no. But speaking of women, I can tell you that BOTH my grandmothers raised their families without the support of husbands, during the Great Depression.One grandfather died young and the other left a wife and 8 kids for another woman. Their kids all had to quit school by grades 5-7 in order to support their families. That instilled an ethic in both my parents that their children WOULD be educated. No one said sorry to my great grandparents for treating them badly when they arrived here and for not giving them jobs because at that time people didn't like what they called greaseballs. It's easy to villainize people you don't know; much harder to do so when you know about their lives. Added: But did they get paid for their work? Was their offspring born enslaved? Did the offspring come from forced reproduction or rape? Did they experience decades of legal discrimination? No one is villainizing anyone unworthy of that distinction. Your familys personal immigration story doesn't negate the fact that African American people are owed much more than what we've been given by this country. My ancestors and your ancestors have a much different "how'd you come to America" story so why the need to make personal comparisons I'll never understand. Do you think an Italian immigrant and an African immigrant should play the oppression Olympics together? You are the same pea who said: "If it's any consolation, many of us white folks are afraid to call the police, too. Look at what happened to the woman from Australia."
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