Olan
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Post by Olan on Jan 15, 2018 22:05:02 GMT
So you are sticking by your original comment that slavery has very little to do with the gap in wealth? And insisting that I re-read the articles because they support your argument. *shocked* I responded to: Darcy Collins As the majority of American's wealth is tied up in real estate ownership and has been for several generations, I imagine housing segregation and discriminatory lending practices have had a much bigger role in the current wealth disparity. Gentrification is the new colonization and no one would have to take a DNA test for that small bit of change to occur. Your mind is made up. Facts be damned. Have a nice MLK day Only you would ask someone to read a 44 page document on wealth disparity - which never once mentions slavery but DOES point out that the majority of the disparity is do to home ownership (which was the point I made) and say facts be damned. Don't pretend you want a discussion. I do thank you for finding some quantitative numbers for my point. Only if you are a slavery sympathizer and can't trace a dollar does your argument make sense. I guess you are arguing slavery and lack of homeownership have nothing to do with the other as well. Neither did Jim Crow or even present day systematic racism right. Olan this will be a pea to ignore from henceforth. Just foolish Chicken vs The Egg Good Toni Morrison quote: The function, the very serious function of racism is distraction. It keeps you from doing your work. It keeps you explaining, over and over again, your reason for being. Somebody says you have no language and you spend twenty years proving that you do. Somebody says your head isn’t shaped properly so you have scientists working on the fact that it is. Somebody says you have no art, so you dredge that up. Somebody says you have no kingdoms, so you dredge that up. None of this is necessary. There will always be one more thing. |
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Post by Clair on Jan 15, 2018 22:22:58 GMT
Treading lightly here....
Olan - I think the frustration is that you don’t seem to be looking for a discussion. You are frustrated when people give an opinion that differs from yours.
You’ve discounted everything that Darcy Collins said. I also think if real estate ownership is a huge component of wealth discrepancy today. She also mentioned housing segregation and discriminatory lending practices - which in my beliefs may tie back to slavery.
Many of us have read articles and know facts but would like to know your personal opinions - in your words.
From my conversations with friends I’ve learned that my white self was very unaware of the racism that exists and I will never understand what it’s like to live life as a black person.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jan 15, 2018 22:24:30 GMT
Only you would ask someone to read a 44 page document on wealth disparity - which never once mentions slavery but DOES point out that the majority of the disparity is do to home ownership (which was the point I made) and say facts be damned. Don't pretend you want a discussion. I do thank you for finding some quantitative numbers for my point. Only if you are a slavery sympathizer and can't trace a dollar does your argument make sense. I guess you are arguing slavery and lack of homeownership have nothing to do with the other as well. Neither did Jim Crow or even present day systematic racism right. Olan this will be a pea to ignore from henceforth. Just foolish Chicken vs The Egg Good Toni Morrison quote: The function, the very serious function of racism is distraction. It keeps you from doing your work. It keeps you explaining, over and over again, your reason for being. Somebody says you have no language and you spend twenty years proving that you do. Somebody says your head isn’t shaped properly so you have scientists working on the fact that it is. Somebody says you have no art, so you dredge that up. Somebody says you have no kingdoms, so you dredge that up. None of this is necessary. There will always be one more thing. I see yet again you've forgotten what I said - it's pretty hard to claim I'm not acknowledging systematic racism or Jim Crow - when I put it in my initial post or do you not think housing segregation is connected to Jim Crow and discriminatory lending practices are connected to systematic racism? |
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JustTricia
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Post by JustTricia on Jan 15, 2018 22:43:37 GMT
Omg. This is hilarious. Let me be blunt- if you think that linking opinion pieces instead of actually voicing your opinion like other people have tried to elicit from you is “ discussion” and then turning around and then blaming others for “ not understanding you, then I feel sorry for you. If my professors had asked me to articulate an opinion and I linked an article instead of articulating my thoughts, I’d get a F. Have at it. Be the angry all knowing black person. Eyeroll. Does anyone think the way M~ tried to elicit a response from me was antagonizing and/or rude? Why or why not? Does anyone see a question from M~ that Olan left unanswered? What about my response was angry or all knowing? And thank you for proving my point that all you do is ask questions and offer no discussion of your own. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Feb 2, 2018 18:40:57 GMT
Does anyone think the way M~ tried to elicit a response from me was antagonizing and/or rude? Why or why not? Does anyone see a question from M~ that Olan left unanswered? What about my response was angry or all knowing? And thank you for proving my point that all you do is ask questions and offer no discussion of your own. No I've just made a healthy choice not to engage with a closeted Latina woman and a slavery sympathizer. Sometimes its okay to agree to disagree. Here are some new findings: Last American Slave Ship
Forensic Economic Approach to
Descendants Demand More Accountability |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Feb 2, 2018 19:04:03 GMT
No, you really did not—you came back to go on the attack of her once again, given your post. You are absolutely no better than those you constantly attack for their “supposed” inadequacy towards your thread topics. |
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JustTricia
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Post by JustTricia on Feb 3, 2018 1:10:30 GMT
I must have a different definition of “not engaging”. To me, it means not quoting, not tagging, and not talking about, all of which you did in the post I quoted. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Feb 14, 2018 11:45:43 GMT
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Post by JustTricia on Feb 14, 2018 11:55:17 GMT
From that article: “In 2016, the university formally apologized, renamed two buildings and announced that it would give preference in admissions to the descendants as part of its effort to atone for profiting from the sale of enslaved people.” And from the title of the article, that’s not enough. So, Olan, I ask you the same things others have asked you multiple times, what is enough? The title of this thread is “Should America Say Sorry”. The University formally apologized. Not enough. The University named two building in the slaves names. Not enough. The University is giving preference in admissions. Not enough. What is enough? From the article, the descendants reached out again, but it didn’t say what they were asking for. You keep posting questions and links, but won’t say what you think is enough. This discussion is so tiresome because it’s a circle and never goes anywhere. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Feb 14, 2018 16:11:06 GMT
From that article: “In 2016, the university formally apologized, renamed two buildings and announced that it would give preference in admissions to the descendants as part of its effort to atone for profiting from the sale of enslaved people.” And from the title of the article, that’s not enough. So, Olan, I ask you the same things others have asked you multiple times, what is enough? The title of this thread is “Should America Say Sorry”. The University formally apologized. Not enough. The University named two building in the slaves names. Not enough. The University is giving preference in admissions. Not enough. What is enough? From the article, the descendants reached out again, but it didn’t say what they were asking for. You keep posting questions and links, but won’t say what you think is enough. This discussion is so tiresome because it’s a circle and never goes anywhere. I've shared what I think is "enough". It's in this very thread. Dismantle the system. The descendants of the 272 enslaved Africans can decide what's "enough" for them without my help. If you have any intellectual curiosity or want to practice your critical thinking skills you can follow the Georgetown story without me posting the links or engaging in any circular conversation with a black woman you don't think very highly of. |
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happymomma
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Post by happymomma on Mar 2, 2018 17:48:37 GMT
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 2, 2018 18:40:41 GMT
Interesting to see the ages of the council members and the citizen whose letter prompted the apology. I hope young people continue to examine their responsibility as Americans. Did anyone see Black Panther? |
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Post by muggins on Mar 2, 2018 18:45:29 GMT
Interesting to see the ages of the council members and the citizen whose letter prompted the apology. I hope young people continue to examine their responsibility as Americans. Did anyone see Black Panther? Yes, I saw Black Panther. It was absolutely fantastic. I’m a huge fan of Danai Gurira from TWD. I usually skip superhero movies, but my DH and DS were surprised I wanted to see it! |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 2, 2018 20:06:19 GMT
Treading lightly here.... Olan - I think the frustration is that you don’t seem to be looking for a discussion. You are frustrated when people give an opinion that differs from yours. You’ve discounted everything that Darcy Collins said. I also think if real estate ownership is a huge component of wealth discrepancy today. She also mentioned housing segregation and discriminatory lending practices - which in my beliefs may tie back to slavery. Many of us have read articles and know facts but would like to know your personal opinions - in your words. From my conversations with friends I’ve learned that my white self was very unaware of the racism that exists and I will never understand what it’s like to live life as a black person. I wasn't frustrated that Darcy had a different opinion. Darcy Collins responded in a thread about women's reproductive history and a statue of a pretty cruel gynecologist. Her response there coupled with the response here makes it clear that engaging with her is futile. Just the pea who made the comment about diluted black people. I don't have a responsibility to engage people like her. She wouldnt stand in a room full of people she knew personally and make the argument she made here so why should I entertain it? If anyone would like to know my personal opinion about something feel free to tag me and pointedly ask a question. I will respond. |
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Post by Peace Sign on Mar 2, 2018 20:22:10 GMT
Would a blanket financial compensation actually change what's wrong in our society or fix the problem? Who would get the compensation? How would it be paid for? Would there be a tax levied on all non-black people to be handed over to black people? Would mixed-race people only get half the compensation? Would black people who have committed violent crimes or sexual assault get the compensation, too? How about Bill Cosby or OJ Simpson? I fully recognize that we are not a just society but, logistical issues aside, I don't think this is a problem we solve at a macro level. It's a problem that is solved by changing individual hearts and minds, and no government apology or transfer of money is going to do that. Well, in a perfect world, I'd find a dollar figure and give it to everyone who is a descendant of a slave. Reparation. It's naive to say we can chamge individuals hearts and minds. Of course we can, and should. But in actuality, that doesn't make up for slavery, redlining, Jim Crow, poor housing, and so many other awful practices that have put many many people generations down the line in a hole almost impossible to get out of. Keep em door and keep em down. Keep them out of the voting booth. And on and on. And yes...an apology and reparations would make a big difference, some have said. You can't tell the people in question whether it will make a difference or not...only they can do that. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2018 20:40:05 GMT
From that article: “In 2016, the university formally apologized, renamed two buildings and announced that it would give preference in admissions to the descendants as part of its effort to atone for profiting from the sale of enslaved people.” And from the title of the article, that’s not enough. So, Olan, I ask you the same things others have asked you multiple times, what is enough? The title of this thread is “Should America Say Sorry”. The University formally apologized. Not enough. The University named two building in the slaves names. Not enough. The University is giving preference in admissions. Not enough. What is enough? From the article, the descendants reached out again, but it didn’t say what they were asking for. You keep posting questions and links, but won’t say what you think is enough. This discussion is so tiresome because it’s a circle and never goes anywhere. I've shared what I think is "enough". It's in this very thread. Dismantle the system. The descendants of the 272 enslaved Africans can decide what's "enough" for them without my help. If you have any intellectual curiosity or want to practice your critical thinking skills you can follow the Georgetown story without me posting the links or engaging in any circular conversation with a black woman you don't think very highly of. The 272 enslaved Africans as well as the Irish slaves, the Chinese slaves that built the RR system, those that forcibly traveled the Trail of Tears/victims of American Indian land seizure by the government, the residents of Bikini Atoll and the Marshall Islands and countless others did not deserve what they got. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 6, 2018 14:22:32 GMT
I've shared what I think is "enough". It's in this very thread. Dismantle the system. The descendants of the 272 enslaved Africans can decide what's "enough" for them without my help. If you have any intellectual curiosity or want to practice your critical thinking skills you can follow the Georgetown story without me posting the links or engaging in any circular conversation with a black woman you don't think very highly of. The 272 enslaved Africans as well as the Irish slaves, the Chinese slaves that built the RR system, those that forcibly traveled the Trail of Tears/victims of American Indian land seizure by the government, the residents of Bikini Atoll and the Marshall Islands and countless others did not deserve what they got. Comparing apples to oranges doesn't justify (which is what you seem to be attempting though I could be wrong) the forced immigration and racial violence that my ancestors faced. No matter how you slice history Irish indentured servants and enslaved Africans shouldn't be put side by side. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 20:23:43 GMT
The 272 enslaved Africans as well as the Irish slaves, the Chinese slaves that built the RR system, those that forcibly traveled the Trail of Tears/victims of American Indian land seizure by the government, the residents of Bikini Atoll and the Marshall Islands and countless others did not deserve what they got. Comparing apples to oranges doesn't justify (which is what you seem to be attempting though I could be wrong) the forced immigration and racial violence that my ancestors faced. No matter how you slice history Irish indentured servants and enslaved Africans shouldn't be put side by side. Please. These are all apples. And you know ONLY what you were taught obviously. My great grandmother Moran may just disagree with you. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 20:26:21 GMT
Not all Irish slaves were indentured. Not all bargained a way out either.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 20:31:39 GMT
Also, read what I wrote. A whole lot of people did not deserve what they got. Guess you're only interested in one group of people. The downfall of the world lies in that very egocentric idea that other people don't matter.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 20:56:18 GMT
Ha! I had a great grandparents with the last name MORAN also!!or maybe great greats--I'll have to look it up!! They settled in Michigan.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 7, 2018 17:06:19 GMT
Comparing apples to oranges doesn't justify (which is what you seem to be attempting though I could be wrong) the forced immigration and racial violence that my ancestors faced. No matter how you slice history Irish indentured servants and enslaved Africans shouldn't be put side by side. Please. These are all apples. And you know ONLY what you were taught obviously. My great grandmother Moran may just disagree with you. What exactly would Great grandmother Moran disagreement be? That I am advocating for my ancestors and letting you know the experience of Irish immigrants and enslaved Africans are.not.the. That shouldn't be up for debate but if your argument is I only know what I've been taught (umm okay)I can only guess how circular such a debate might be. If you started a thread about their ancestors immigration experience or their treatment as citizens of this country my response wouldn't be "well enslaved Africans had it much harder". It just wouldn't. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 7, 2018 17:12:05 GMT
Today is the 53rd Anniversary of the march for voting rights in Selma. www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/selma-bloody-sunday-53-anniversary-lawmakers-martin-coretta-king-unity-breakfast/This past Sunday, people of all races and creed gathered there again to commemorate the fateful day. At the annual Martin and Coretta King Unity Breakfast, held at Wallace Community College Selma, Alabama Congresswoman Terri Sewell opened up the remarks by saying, "We need to know our history in order to learn from our history, and so we don't relive our history." Alabama Senator Doug Jones, who emphasized the importance of recognizing Selma every day, echoed those sentiments. "We can never let the lessons from Selma and Birmingham be lost on this generation," he said to applause. "We've come a long way but we have miles to go." The events in Selma roused public opinion on the country's racial inequalities and helped spur Congress to pass the Voting Rights Act, which President Lyndon Johnson signed into law on August 6, 1965. Rep. Lewis, who also returned to Selma on Sunday to look back at that moment, addressed the importance of this key right. "The vote is precious. In a democratic society as ours, it's almost sacred," Lewis said. "Don't give up, don't give in." |
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Post by birdgate on Mar 7, 2018 23:19:42 GMT
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 10, 2018 14:14:53 GMT
Thanks for sharing. From the article: Without a doubt, life was bad for indentured servants. They were often treated brutally. Not all of them entered servitude willingly. Some were political prisoners. Some were children. “I’m not saying it was pleasant or anything — it was the opposite — but it was a completely different category from slavery,” said Liam Hogan, a research librarian in Ireland who has spearheaded the debunking effort. “It was a transitory state.” The legal differences between indentured servitude and chattel slavery were profound, according to Matthew Reilly, an archaeologist who studies Barbados. Unlike slaves, servants were considered legally human. Their servitude was based on a contract that limited their service to a finite period of time, usually about seven years, in exchange for passage to the colonies. They did not pass their unfree status on to descendants. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 10, 2018 14:32:11 GMT
No one is villainizing anyone unworthy of that distinction. Your familys personal immigration story doesn't negate the fact that African American people are owed much more than what we've been given by this country. My ancestors and your ancestors have a much different "how'd you come to America" story so why the need to make personal comparisons I'll never understand. Do you think an Italian immigrant and an African immigrant should play the oppression Olympics together? You are the same pea who said: "If it's any consolation, many of us white folks are afraid to call the police, too. Look at what happened to the woman from Australia." Wrong! YOU, OLAN, are villainizing an entire country of people, including many of us here, whom you don't even know personally, who have not been proven worthy of that distinction. Clearly nothing this country ever does will ever be enough to staunch your constant whining and wringing of hands over your long-dead ancestors who were enslaved by the evil white man. Not ever will you ever concede that other peoples have been enslaved, tortured, treated badly. Your peoples' story will always be worse, always be bigger, and never be rectified sufficiently. If you hate it so badly here, why don't you just leave??? Not the message board -- the country. Go back to Africa where you can be happy and successful and treated the way you deserve to be treated. "Not ever will you ever concede that other peoples have been enslaved, tortured, treated badly. Your peoples' story will always be worse, always be bigger, and never be rectified sufficiently." Olan what do you think? Of course the pea told us how she really feels lol but I re-read it and saw something different this time around. What page is the black inventors post? Hey: No black inventors thread its called Happy Black History. The page number will change depending on the activity of the board but its way way back. Participated Threads(not posts *wink*) or just keyword search. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Apr 23, 2018 14:36:08 GMT
Wrong! YOU, OLAN, are villainizing an entire country of people, including many of us here, whom you don't even know personally, who have not been proven worthy of that distinction. Clearly nothing this country ever does will ever be enough to staunch your constant whining and wringing of hands over your long-dead ancestors who were enslaved by the evil white man. Not ever will you ever concede that other peoples have been enslaved, tortured, treated badly. Your peoples' story will always be worse, always be bigger, and never be rectified sufficiently. If you hate it so badly here, why don't you just leave??? Not the message board -- the country. Go back to Africa where you can be happy and successful and treated the way you deserve to be treated. "Not ever will you ever concede that other peoples have been enslaved, tortured, treated badly. Your peoples' story will always be worse, always be bigger, and never be rectified sufficiently." Olan what do you think? Of course the pea told us how she really feels lol but I re-read it and saw something different this time around. What page is the black inventors post? Hey: No black inventors thread its called Happy Black History. The page number will change depending on the activity of the board but its way way back. Participated Threads(not posts *wink*) or just keyword search. |
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Post by katieanna on Apr 23, 2018 18:40:29 GMT
The only thing that can conceivably be done to rectify/atone for slavery is to make CHANGES TODAY that make the system fair for everyone. We can't undo what our ancestors did; we can't UNDO anything that has been done by the past by people - black and white - who've been dead for generations. By the same token, we can't UNDO the resultant prejudices, bitterness, and contempt that has accompanied the great atrocity of slavery, either.
But we CAN strive to CHANGE things today so that things are better FOR EVERYONE tomorrow. But it's not just a one-sided thing, either. Just as it takes two in a relationship to make that relationship work, it also takes BOTH SIDES of a situation to work together to rectify what is CURRENTLY wrong.
From what I've read in this thread, I get the feeling that those who've been wronged in the past (not ALL, maybe, but those who share OLAN's views) are looking for something that may be beyond the ability or even the willingness of the other side to give. We can make achievements in policies that prevent discrimination; that attempt to be "fair," - but how do we REALLY change how people think/feel if they are prejudiced and bitter to the point that nothing short of absolute SUBJUCATION of the other side will satisfy them?
I think race relations in the USA is one of THE most serious issues that we face as a nation. There are deeply disturbing views from BOTH SIDES that prevent any kind of solution to be had. If that were not true, then the whole race issue would have been solved decades ago.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Apr 24, 2018 10:47:26 GMT
The only thing that can conceivably be done to rectify/atone for slavery is to make CHANGES TODAY that make the system fair for everyone. We can't undo what our ancestors did; we can't UNDO anything that has been done by the past by people - black and white - who've been dead for generations. By the same token, we can't UNDO the resultant prejudices, bitterness, and contempt that has accompanied the great atrocity of slavery, either. But we CAN strive to CHANGE things today so that things are better FOR EVERYONE tomorrow. But it's not just a one-sided thing, either. Just as it takes two in a relationship to make that relationship work, it also takes BOTH SIDES of a situation to work together to rectify what is CURRENTLY wrong. From what I've read in this thread, I get the feeling that those who've been wronged in the past (not ALL, maybe, but those who share OLAN's views) are looking for something that may be beyond the ability or even the willingness of the other side to give. We can make achievements in policies that prevent discrimination; that attempt to be "fair," - but how do we REALLY change how people think/feel if they are prejudiced and bitter to the point that nothing short of absolute SUBJUCATION of the other side will satisfy them? I think race relations in the USA is one of THE most serious issues that we face as a nation. There are deeply disturbing views from BOTH SIDES that prevent any kind of solution to be had. If that were not true, then the whole race issue would have been solved decades ago. Both sides? Deeply disturbing views? It really saddens/scares me to think there isn't just one katieanna. |
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Post by mustlovecats on Apr 24, 2018 11:58:38 GMT
The only thing that can conceivably be done to rectify/atone for slavery is to make CHANGES TODAY that make the system fair for everyone. We can't undo what our ancestors did; we can't UNDO anything that has been done by the past by people - black and white - who've been dead for generations. By the same token, we can't UNDO the resultant prejudices, bitterness, and contempt that has accompanied the great atrocity of slavery, either. But we CAN strive to CHANGE things today so that things are better FOR EVERYONE tomorrow. But it's not just a one-sided thing, either. Just as it takes two in a relationship to make that relationship work, it also takes BOTH SIDES of a situation to work together to rectify what is CURRENTLY wrong. From what I've read in this thread, I get the feeling that those who've been wronged in the past (not ALL, maybe, but those who share OLAN's views) are looking for something that may be beyond the ability or even the willingness of the other side to give. We can make achievements in policies that prevent discrimination; that attempt to be "fair," - but how do we REALLY change how people think/feel if they are prejudiced and bitter to the point that nothing short of absolute SUBJUCATION of the other side will satisfy them? I think race relations in the USA is one of THE most serious issues that we face as a nation. There are deeply disturbing views from BOTH SIDES that prevent any kind of solution to be had. If that were not true, then the whole race issue would have been solved decades ago. There are things you’ve said I agree with. We can’t go back and make it right. I am a systemic beneficiary of systemic privilege. I have no mechanism by which to undo that. I only have my commitment to an equitable, profitable future for all, and my commitment to change the systemic inequities that exist. However the phrase “both sides” now sets my teeth on edge a bit. Donald Trump said there were good people on both sides in Charlottesville on a day which I believe will go down in the books as a watershed event in our country’s history of racial issues. To this day that tone deaf statement has rung in my ear and I have had to contend with the idea that “both sides” or “all sides” or “the other side” may be a problematic statement. He defended men who chanted “Jews will not replace us” as fine people indeed and I felt that legitimized being on the side of a very dangerous form of racism. So now I don’t know that I can use “both sides” as a way of trying to express my attempts at looking fairly and calmly as an issue because it can place me on the side of men like that and I won’t do it. |
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