Olan
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by Olan on Jul 17, 2017 10:54:27 GMT
For example, I have no idea what color eyes 45 has. I have seen hundreds of photos of him, but it's not an important detail. See what I mean? But if you think race is as irrelevant as eye color then....I don't know what to tell you. That is a very naive way of seeing the world, but I don't think most people see it that way. Yet in your post to Olan about how you don't see race as important, you also said that you see Beyonce as a woman. Why do you feel like her gender is an important part of who she is as a person, but not her race? Both are essential parts of her identity! Everyone who said they didn't see Beyoncé as a woman or wouldn't have voted for Clinton based on gender proved my point. Again I say Black women are constantly denied autonomy by white women and you never want to see us win. *shrugs* I can't remember where I read this or even if I read it somewhere but "every moment his knee wasn't at your neck your knee was at mine" essentially sums up the relationship between black and white women. We know my ancestors had to feed your children and watch their own be sold off. We all know the history of the women's movement! We all watched The Help. We all see how my son is more likely to be shot and killed by the police than your own. We know about the disparity in care both maternal and in instances of cancer. No? What has changed? If you hate being lumped in with everyone else I don't know what to tell you. *shrugs* Certainly not everyone white person is racist but you are benefiting from this system every day. If I don't actively participate in robbing a farmer but I actively enjoy the stolen fruit.... Also I've said that several times here and this will probably be my last time explaining why I won't write "Some white women don't like to see black women win". That isn't my truth. My truth is more white women than not. It's my perspective it's my experience. Just like you share your welfare queen stories and baby naming critiques I should be able to openly share what I feel about white women. No one should try to silence me by calling me bitter and angry that only proves you have no defense. |
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PrettyInPeank
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by PrettyInPeank on Jul 17, 2017 15:04:05 GMT
For some reason my other posts have been forgotten or ignored, so I'll post parts again.
I never said I don't see color; just that it doesn't define an individual.
I see an individual's kindness, creativity, perserverence, and talent -- their character, as who they are. And you're damned right that I don't see skin color as character defining like eye color, to me. And that's okay. I sure as hell don't want my skin color to define me. I'm more than my skin color.
I am at a loss as to what is being asked of me anymore. Do I start saying, "my friend who's in law school, who is black, is coming over today." because it's an integral part of her identity? Or do I say, "my friend in law school who loves to run marathons is coming over today."
Because the latter is what I do. And everyone here who has said they're black says I'm wrong. That the color of their skin is who they are.
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Post by SockMonkey on Jul 17, 2017 15:25:17 GMT
For some reason my other posts have been forgotten or ignored, so I'll post parts again. I never said I don't see color; just that it doesn't define an individual. I see an individual's kindness, creativity, perserverence, and talent -- their character, as who they are. And you're damned right that I don't see skin color as character defining like eye color, to me. And that's okay. I sure as hell don't want my skin color to define me. I'm more than my skin color. I am at a loss as to what is being asked of me anymore. Do I start saying, "my friend who's in law school, who is black, is coming over today." because it's an integral part of her identity? Or do I say, "my friend in law school who loves to run marathons is coming over today." Because the latter is what I do. And everyone here who has said they're black says I'm wrong. That the color of their skin is who they are. Please listen to what people of color are saying to you. You are coming from a position of privilege in which your skin color is viewed as the "default." That's GREAT that you don't want your skin color to define you, but guess what? IT DOES, because it's afforded you the ability to navigate society in a much easier way than people of color. It just has. At the minimum, perhaps acknowledge that. If "everyone here who has said they're black" says you're "wrong," what might that teach you about your perspective? How might you question your views? |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jul 17, 2017 15:37:52 GMT
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Post by SockMonkey on Jul 17, 2017 16:54:36 GMT
Are you talking to me? No, no I am not "woke." If you call yourself woke, you're probably not. But, I'm trying. Just trying to listen, accept criticism and be introspective. What's the bad in that? Does t make you uncomfortable? This is where your peers shame you for lapping them in the personal growth department. Yeah, I'm not ashamed. I'm just trying. That makes some people really uncomfortable (and sometimes it makes me uncomfortable, too, because it means I have to confront my biases, own the stupid shit I may have said/done in the past). I'm not gonna be sorry for it, though. If someone wants to hate on me for trying to improve my own self and maybe challenge perspectives, I'm okay with that. Nobody ever grew through doing easy shit. |
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 17, 2017 17:09:51 GMT
This place. *sigh* So, without wading too deep into the waters of this argument (discussion?), let me please just say WHITE PEOPLE: We do not get to tell people of color how to be angry or how angry they can be. We just don't. So stop it. Omg, YES! Thank you. I've been reading this whole thread hoping and wishing someone would say this, and shocked when no one did. I haven't even finished reading but I had to stop and say that. REading this thread reminds me of how incredibly, deeply ingrained racism is into this country. So many people honestly believe that race doesn't matter to them, they treat everyone the same, and yet.... Let me please just say PEOPLE: We do not get to tell other people how to be angry or how angry they can be. Here's a startling bit of reality: It is more accurate to lump some people of color in with the slave trade than it is to include me or my ancestors.  Why? My ancestors fought against slavery and for freedom for all Americans for well over three hundred years. Some people of color engaged in capturing, selling and owning other people of color during that same time. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a personal friend of my family. This persistent need to see and describe each other by the color of our skin before and above all else is directly opposed to Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr's dream for the United States. As we celebrate the 50th anniversary, I'd like to see us getting back to: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character". I do justice to my ancestors by remembering and acknowledging them as they were, not by apologizing for who they were not. No one on this board or in the population in general gets to tell me what I should and should not feel. Nor do they have the right to decide what guilt I should or should not bear for things that happened long before I was even born by people who weren't guilty to begin with. You just don't. So stop it. |
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Post by red88 on Jul 17, 2017 17:28:17 GMT
Listen I'm sorry many of you feel the way that you feel. Continue bashing me in an attempt to silence very real issues. We've already established that you don't care what I think so I'm puzzled why the inflammatory language and bang wagon jumping. I'm a racist bitch that everyone hates. But how does that change who you are?  That's all I'm going to say about that. |
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Post by sean&marysmommy on Jul 17, 2017 17:57:28 GMT
Omg, YES! Thank you. I've been reading this whole thread hoping and wishing someone would say this, and shocked when no one did. I haven't even finished reading but I had to stop and say that. REading this thread reminds me of how incredibly, deeply ingrained racism is into this country. So many people honestly believe that race doesn't matter to them, they treat everyone the same, and yet.... Let me please just say PEOPLE: We do not get to tell other people how to be angry or how angry they can be. Here's a startling bit of reality: It is more accurate to lump some people of color in with the slave trade than it is to include me or my ancestors. Why? My ancestors fought against slavery and for freedom for all Americans for well over three hundred years. Some people of color engaged in capturing, selling and owning other people of color during that same time. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a personal friend of my family. This persistent need to see and describe each other by the color of our skin before and above all else is directly opposed to Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr's dream for the United States. As we celebrate the 50th anniversary, I'd like to see us getting back to: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character". I do justice to my ancestors by remembering and acknowledging them as they were, not by apologizing for who they were not. No one on this board or in the population in general gets to tell me what I should and should not feel. Nor do they have the right to decide what guilt I should or should not bear for things that happened long before I was even born by people who weren't guilty to begin with. You just don't. So stop it. Not sure why you are quoting me here. I haven't told a single soul on this board- on this Earth, for that matter, how angry they are or are not allowed to feel, about anything. Nor have I have said anything about guilt, or who should have or not have any. Are you meaning to address someone else here? |
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Olan
Pearl Clutcher
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Posts: 4,053
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Post by Olan on Jul 17, 2017 18:24:41 GMT
Let me please just say PEOPLE: We do not get to tell other people how to be angry or how angry they can be. Here's a startling bit of reality: It is more accurate to lump some people of color in with the slave trade than it is to include me or my ancestors. Why? My ancestors fought against slavery and for freedom for all Americans for well over three hundred years. Some people of color engaged in capturing, selling and owning other people of color during that same time. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a personal friend of my family. This persistent need to see and describe each other by the color of our skin before and above all else is directly opposed to Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr's dream for the United States. As we celebrate the 50th anniversary, I'd like to see us getting back to: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character". I do justice to my ancestors by remembering and acknowledging them as they were, not by apologizing for who they were not. No one on this board or in the population in general gets to tell me what I should and should not feel. Nor do they have the right to decide what guilt I should or should not bear for things that happened long before I was even born by people who weren't guilty to begin with. You just don't. So stop it. Not sure why you are quoting me here. I haven't told a single soul on this board- on this Earth, for that matter, how angry they are or are not allowed to feel, about anything. Nor have I have said anything about guilt, or who should have or not have any. Are you meaning to address someone else here? She is coming up with something good. So far she's deleted twice so I am assuming whateve it is it can't be edited *shrugs* |
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 17, 2017 19:01:34 GMT
Not sure why you are quoting me here. I haven't told a single soul on this board- on this Earth, for that matter, how angry they are or are not allowed to feel, about anything. Nor have I have said anything about guilt, or who should have or not have any. Are you meaning to address someone else here? Yeah, you did. Omg, YES! Thank you. I've been reading this whole thread hoping and wishing someone would say this, and shocked when no one did. I haven't even finished reading but I had to stop and say that. REading this thread reminds me of how incredibly, deeply ingrained racism is into this country. So many people honestly believe that race doesn't matter to them, they treat everyone the same, and yet.... FWIW, I notice a person's race to a degree. I notice skin & hair color along with general build and attitude, but I pre-judge people more by their attitude than I judge them by their most apparent race. I consider denying a person's complete heritage - especially by seeing only the most apparent ancestry - as demeaning. I'd be sitting alone at any family gathering if I thought otherwise. It's quite fascinating to me to see the differences in succeeding generations in a family with distinctive dominate traits such as dark pigmentation or slanted eyes as they interact with parents and grandparents with strikingly different appearance. It makes me think about the wonder of life on a scientific, evolutionary level and how we can trace the migrations of all peoples throughout time based on the mutation of our genetics. My mind wanders in ways not in accord with what is presented here as the thoughts of "white" people when it comes to race. Also, I don't treat everyone the same. If you come at me with a lousy attitude and a chip on your shoulder, you can bet I'm not going to give you the same ear as the friendly person with a gripe. Skin color isn't the thing that makes the difference. Attitude is. |
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Post by sean&marysmommy on Jul 17, 2017 20:19:39 GMT
Not sure why you are quoting me here. I haven't told a single soul on this board- on this Earth, for that matter, how angry they are or are not allowed to feel, about anything. Nor have I have said anything about guilt, or who should have or not have any. Are you meaning to address someone else here? Yeah, you did. Omg, YES! Thank you. I've been reading this whole thread hoping and wishing someone would say this, and shocked when no one did. I haven't even finished reading but I had to stop and say that. REading this thread reminds me of how incredibly, deeply ingrained racism is into this country. So many people honestly believe that race doesn't matter to them, they treat everyone the same, and yet.... FWIW, I notice a person's race to a degree. I notice skin & hair color along with general build and attitude, but I pre-judge people more by their attitude than I judge them by their most apparent race. I consider denying a person's complete heritage - especially by seeing only the most apparent ancestry - as demeaning. I'd be sitting alone at any family gathering if I thought otherwise. It's quite fascinating to me to see the differences in succeeding generations in a family with distinctive dominate traits such as dark pigmentation or slanted eyes as they interact with parents and grandparents with strikingly different appearance. It makes me think about the wonder of life on a scientific, evolutionary level and how we can trace the migrations of all peoples throughout time based on the mutation of our genetics. My mind wanders in ways not in accord with what is presented here as the thoughts of "white" people when it comes to race. Also, I don't treat everyone the same. If you come at me with a lousy attitude and a chip on your shoulder, you can bet I'm not going to give you the same ear as the friendly person with a gripe. Skin color isn't the thing that makes the difference. Attitude is. In that post, I was agreeing with Sock that we DON'T get to tell people how angry they can or cannot feel. |
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Post by gillyp on Jul 18, 2017 0:05:59 GMT
This persistent need to see and describe each other by the color of our skin before and above all else is directly opposed to Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr's dream for the United States. As we celebrate the 50th anniversary, I'd like to see us getting back to: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character".
I was 7 when this speech was made and I have been aware of it since I have been old enough to grasp its' meaning. As far as I am aware it is very well known in the UK. Isn't this want blacks want? Isn't this what some whites are trying to do? Isn't this what the whites on here are saying? I use words similar to "I don't see the colour, I see the person" and it's suggested here that that is offensive. In using that phrase I am not dismissing that person's culture or background, I take it as a given that it is realised I see the whole person. IMHO it is the wording not the intent that is the issue. If I am missing the point then someone, SockMonkey ?, please put me right. The terms privilege, responsibility, inheritance and others have been used by more than one poster and I'm sure some whites, if not offended, are certainly taken aback by these. Those using those words have no idea what "baggage" whites are bringing to the table and it's unfair and unjust to lump all together just as it's unfair for us to do that. In the last 20 odd years my family have been victims of racism. Eh? You're white. You live in the nation you were born in, how can you possibly have been a victim?? 20 odd years ago our family moved from England where we were all born to Scotland, still part of the UK, still the same nation, but a different country. At high school DS1 was picked on regularly by Scottish lads, name calling, pushing, shoving, hitting, until one of them pushed him through a window and the resulting smashed glass cut through tendons in his hand. He lost a lot of blood and nearly lost the use of his hand. A surgeon from another hospital had to come through to operate. I am feeling shaky just writing this; it was years ago and DS1 was pretty capable of taking care of himself but I still get worked up. DS2 was in primary school and was regularly bullied by.his.teacher. Until he eventually told me and I put a stop to it. In my own place of work it was made clear I was not welcome for taking the job in place of a Scot and even people outside the organisation were hostile. All because we were English. It's a standing joke in Scotland when there's an international soccer match "Who do you want to win?" "Anyone except the English". It's not that funny when you are English. ETA I am not bashing the Scots, this is how it was. Many locals now think I was born here despite my obvious English accent and any insults that are flung my way are usually in good humour as a bit of banter. I don't have a problem with that and it doesn't bother me poking fun at myself either. I am fully aware this is nothing, NOTHING like, what some blacks have had to endure and are still enduring in one form or another, I'm just throwing (more) of my experiences into the mix. So, to get back to my original question, what is wrong with paraphrasing Martin Luther King jr's words when we truly believe this is what is wanted? |
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 18, 2017 6:20:16 GMT
In that post, I was agreeing with Sock that we DON'T get to tell people how angry they can or cannot feel. Now you leave out the color of someone's skin. Skin pigmentation most certainly was the qualifying point in the post that you agreed with. My 5th great-grandmother, a woman with fair skin, was bought. In America. And so was her sister. So what does that make me? A descendant of a slave? Who's gonna tell me how angry I should or should not be about that? |
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Post by sean&marysmommy on Jul 18, 2017 14:02:23 GMT
In that post, I was agreeing with Sock that we DON'T get to tell people how angry they can or cannot feel. Now you leave out the color of someone's skin. Skin pigmentation most certainly was the qualifying point in the post that you agreed with. My 5th great-grandmother, a woman with fair skin, was bought. In America. And so was her sister. So what does that make me? A descendant of a slave? Who's gonna tell me how angry I should or should not be about that? I don't think people of ANY race get to tell other people how to feel. My guess is Sock addressed white people specifically b/c they seemed to be the ones policing emotions on this thread. |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jul 18, 2017 14:05:07 GMT
Now you leave out the color of someone's skin. Skin pigmentation most certainly was the qualifying point in the post that you agreed with. My 5th great-grandmother, a woman with fair skin, was bought. In America. And so was her sister. So what does that make me? A descendant of a slave? Who's gonna tell me how angry I should or should not be about that? I don't think people of ANY race get to tell other people how to feel. My guess is Sock addressed white people specifically b/c they seemed to be the ones policing emotions on this thread. Yes. Thank you. |
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