grinningcat
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,663
Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Mar 2, 2015 19:23:49 GMT
Sort of kind of... not really? He's never wanted a church wedding but wanted a priest to officiate. After the meeting he suggested having a church wedding and then travelling to the location we already have. I absolutely refuse to have the wedding in two different locations that are at least an hour apart in travel time... and on a Friday night in the GTA to boot? No way. No how. I am not wasting my time travelling that far between locations. Among everything else. I think we've gone back to the original plan, but I am not sure. I totally agree with you on the travel. That would be silly. I wonder if he'd be ok with a rent-a-priest kind of thing. I hope you two are able to sit down and have a long talk about what he really wants and putting his foot down with his mom, etc. I have to be honest here-I'm seeing some red flags waving with his family. If he can't stand up to them on this, I'd be seriously questioning what else he's going to give in on down the road. Because pushy relatives don't just stop after the ceremony-they just get exponentially worse. Especially once/if kids come along. Good luck with all of this. This kind of stuff is why I think elopements or extremely small weddings are such a great thing. We are going to sit down and talk it out. I have a secular officiant to call and we'll meet with her hopefully this weekend. I've also printed off all the readings for the Catholic ceremony so that he can hopefully find one that would work for us. We'll sort this out. I know we will. I'm not scared to stand up to his parents. For the most part, he's stood up to them as well. This topic is just... different. So we'll hash it out. Thanks though. oh look, it's the Catholic church of my childhood. THIS is why I had and continue to have issues with the Catholic church. To be fair, I've also seen Catholic priests who are wonderful, open people where a wedding is concerned. But my foundational "education" with the CC, is rooted in this personality type. I'm sorry this has become a bigger thing now. I would make sure you know what DF wants, sounds like you know what his family wants. Hugs on sitting down with his mother, that could go either way. I'm not scared of his mother, or any of his family. They aren't going to change who I am or what I want so I'm firm in that. If they can't accept me, then oh well. I'll sit down, talk to them (I've never been afraid to talk about being an atheist or how I got there) and all I can hope for is that they understand. If they don't. Oh well. That won't change me or who I am. I'm not about to become someone else because they want me to. The only person that matters is FH.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 8, 2024 2:32:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 19:37:46 GMT
We are going to sit down and talk it out. I have a secular officiant to call and we'll meet with her hopefully this weekend. I've also printed off all the readings for the Catholic ceremony so that he can hopefully find one that would work for us. We'll sort this out. I know we will. I'm not scared to stand up to his parents. For the most part, he's stood up to them as well. This topic is just... different. So we'll hash it out. Thanks though. Good to hear. Hopefully, him standing up to them now will set a precedent, and maybe they won't be so anxious to get pushy with future issues. I feel for you on this. You shouldn't have to put up with this kind of behavior.
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teddyw
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,831
Jun 29, 2014 1:56:04 GMT
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Post by teddyw on Mar 2, 2015 20:32:24 GMT
Saw your update. It seems so stressful to have all these family members weighing in. This should be a happy time for both of you. I hope it all works out in the least dramatic way for both of you.
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M in Carolina
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,128
Jun 29, 2014 12:11:41 GMT
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Post by M in Carolina on Mar 2, 2015 21:37:39 GMT
I detest clergy treating me like I'm some stupid errant child as well. I am sorry you're having to go through this.
If you and your fiance don't nip this "discussion" trend with your in-laws now, it will cause trouble down the road. This is the sort of issue that causes family rifts. My mom has been so awful about not respecting that dh and I have different beliefs than she does that she and I only have a very superficial relationship. Dh and I refuse to engage, but that doesn't mean that my mom is willing to let the matter go.
Agreeing to disagree about religion is a good idea for families. It does take mutual respect, though. Parents can have a hard time admitting that their children are grown and their beliefs should be respected.
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Mar 2, 2015 22:41:03 GMT
You're getting suggestions to "rent" a priest. In case you're considering that, read below. If not, stop reading now. To supplement his pension, my late uncle worked as a freelance priest after he retired from a diocesan career. I believe he followed the rules of whichever bishop ran the diocese in which he was asked to work. Example: the cardinal in his original archdiocese didn't allow non-church weddings, so he declined those requests, but the bishop in an adjacent diocese DID allow them, so he accepted those requests. Technically, he was "unassigned," so he probably could have gone rogue, but his was a world of hierarchal respect...and politics. Priests from religious orders, though, are beholden to their provincial supervisor, not the local bishop. You might be able to find a [Jesuit, Franciscan, Dominican] priest who works in a local high school or university. (Jesuits DO have a special vow they take to honor the pope, and I have no idea what this pope thinks about non-church weddings or blessings; on the other hand, Jesuits are usually academics, so tend to lean liberal, be less rule-driven, and are usually free from diocesan politics.) Another possibility is chaplains from hospitals that are owned by a religious order. Whew. That's a lot not to read.
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ctencza
Shy Member
Posts: 39
Jun 27, 2014 0:43:36 GMT
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Post by ctencza on Mar 3, 2015 0:14:20 GMT
If I may butt in, growing up in a Catholic family and knowing many people who are very CATHOLIC...enough so to demand their children marry within the church, there is no way anything but a priest will do. Episcopal may be close, but it's still Protestant. No dice. You're either married by the church or not. The end. The real question is what level of compromise are you and your fiancé willing to do? When you combine different religions, cultures, hell even different football team preferences there will be times when one gets the shaft.
You both are creating your union, your new life. Personally, I worry about couples that rely on pleasing family members so much. But that's me. You need to decide what kind of marriage you will have and to whom you have the most loyalty. Once you do that the decisions become very simple. If your fiancé has a personal faith that matters to him then yes, I agree that some real compromise is needed. If it's just family...eh, not so much. Also, I think you can call the Monsignor an ass. He knew damn well what he was saying and why he was saying it. Good luck to you.
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Post by kelbel827 on Mar 3, 2015 1:00:07 GMT
When people find out that I'm atheist, they always say they will pray for me. Maybe, you could tell them the truth, and they will be so busy praying for you, that they don't realize that you have already gotten married I am a godmother to two kids. I use that word loosely. There is a former priest who got kicked out because he wanted to get married. He started his own church. My friends' mom comes from a huge Catholic family, and even has a sister who is a nun. She swore that the kids would go to hell if they weren't baptized. My friend didn't want to, but met this priest at a wedding and she really liked the things he had to say, so she had her kids baptized by him to shut her mom up. He approached myself and the other godmother. He asked what religion I was and I outright told him I didn't believe in God. He was good with it and just asked if I planned to raise the kids upholding high standards, morals and values. I said yes, and boom, I'm a godmother to two kids. I really admire you. I could never even begin to compromise in a situation like this. Good luck with the rest of the wedding planning.
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,375
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on Mar 3, 2015 1:15:51 GMT
As a "recovering" Catholic, I have to say what turned me off to the church is just what you updated. That the only way to worship is the Catholic way. They only right church is the Catholic church. I truly do not want to offend anyone, but this seems too cult-like for me. Stop explaining to anyone but your future husband. The two of you decide where/how you wish to be married. No one else gets a say. You are not children. Wishing you the wedding of your dreams. Thanks. I will sit down and discuss this with his parents if it comes up, but only to the point where it explains my point of view and not as an apology or anything like that. It just dawned on me that this may stem from no one ever questioning or challenging the status quo. It seems like in the past, everyone has done what is expected of them rather than what they wanted to do... not just with wedding but other things too. So I don't know if maybe that's what is freaking them out. That instead of doing what is "tradition" and expected, I am doing something else. I don't know if that makes sense or even if I can explain it, but it just dawned on me that this could be the root of the issue. Absolutely. And admittedly, as someone raised exactly the same way, I don't understand your problem with that. I attended a wonderful keynote speech recently at our school district's professional day. Dr. Martin Brokenleg was the speaker. He noted that one of the culture differences and difficulties that has existed between First Nations communities and the dominant culture is that for many, many years, they had NO word for nuclear family... family was not just parent(s) and their children... it was the couple, their children, and their 250 other nearest relations...multiple generations. He believes, as do I, that we've lost something as a people by moving away from that. To me, not realizing that their sons wedding IS there day as much as yours is disrespectful to your future husband's family. I firmly believe that yes, we should all consider the impact of our decisions not only on our 'nuclear' family but also on the wider circle, and we need to do what's best for the maintenance of those ties. If that means a church wedding, or driving somewhere for Christmas, or whatever - so be it. So I do feel badly that you are missing out on a wonderful opportunity to honour your future mother in law as one of the elders in your clan by not respecting her wishes. You and future DH are not just joining your own lives - you are joining two larger families.
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grinningcat
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,663
Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Mar 3, 2015 12:54:07 GMT
Saw your update. It seems so stressful to have all these family members weighing in. This should be a happy time for both of you. I hope it all works out in the least dramatic way for both of you. It will work itself out. I know it will. And it will be a lovely day... if there's drama on the day who will act as bouncers to eliminate them. And I have no qualms about doing that... family or not. You don't get to act like an ass at someone else's party and get away with it. But I don't expect any of that. I detest clergy treating me like I'm some stupid errant child as well. I am sorry you're having to go through this. If you and your fiance don't nip this "discussion" trend with your in-laws now, it will cause trouble down the road. This is the sort of issue that causes family rifts. My mom has been so awful about not respecting that dh and I have different beliefs than she does that she and I only have a very superficial relationship. Dh and I refuse to engage, but that doesn't mean that my mom is willing to let the matter go. Agreeing to disagree about religion is a good idea for families. It does take mutual respect, though. Parents can have a hard time admitting that their children are grown and their beliefs should be respected. Being treated like an errant child by anyone, but particularly priests, really gets my goat. It causes me to lose respect for those people and it's hard to get it back (I'm slowly getting back to a good place with his aunt who was a bit intense when we first started planning this damn wedding). I'm not backing down from my beliefs, nor going through the motions to please anyone. I don't care whose mother you are. I am who I am and if you don't accept that, that's your problem not mine. If my FH wants to participate in the church, go to services or whatever, I am not going to stop him. I will encourage him and attend important events to support him. But I can't see that changing my faith (but who knows, I get proof and things will change). I am very respectful of their beliefs and practices, just not when it is forced on me and expected because that's what's done. It has to mean something and have significance, otherwise it is just a lie. And I'm not basing my marriage on a lie. You're getting suggestions to "rent" a priest. In case you're considering that, read below. If not, stop reading now. To supplement his pension, my late uncle worked as a freelance priest after he retired from a diocesan career. I believe he followed the rules of whichever bishop ran the diocese in which he was asked to work. Example: the cardinal in his original archdiocese didn't allow non-church weddings, so he declined those requests, but the bishop in an adjacent diocese DID allow them, so he accepted those requests. Technically, he was "unassigned," so he probably could have gone rogue, but his was a world of hierarchal respect...and politics. Priests from religious orders, though, are beholden to their provincial supervisor, not the local bishop. You might be able to find a [Jesuit, Franciscan, Dominican] priest who works in a local high school or university. (Jesuits DO have a special vow they take to honor the pope, and I have no idea what this pope thinks about non-church weddings or blessings; on the other hand, Jesuits are usually academics, so tend to lean liberal, be less rule-driven, and are usually free from diocesan politics.) Another possibility is chaplains from hospitals that are owned by a religious order. Whew. That's a lot not to read. Thanks. I've not done a lot of investigating, it's more of a "hmmm wonder if that would work" kind of thing. I know a priest that would "go rogue" except he lives in Alberta and I'm in Ontario... and he can no longer travel due to health issues. And he's the kind of priest I wish they all were... not pompous, understands me and would definitely be open to a non-traditional ceremony (no gospel, no homily, etc). But alas, he's off the table. But thank you for the information, I may take my search in a new direction. If I may butt in, growing up in a Catholic family and knowing many people who are very CATHOLIC...enough so to demand their children marry within the church, there is no way anything but a priest will do. Episcopal may be close, but it's still Protestant. No dice. You're either married by the church or not. The end. The real question is what level of compromise are you and your fiancé willing to do? When you combine different religions, cultures, hell even different football team preferences there will be times when one gets the shaft. You both are creating your union, your new life. Personally, I worry about couples that rely on pleasing family members so much. But that's me. You need to decide what kind of marriage you will have and to whom you have the most loyalty. Once you do that the decisions become very simple. If your fiancé has a personal faith that matters to him then yes, I agree that some real compromise is needed. If it's just family...eh, not so much. Also, I think you can call the Monsignor an ass. He knew damn well what he was saying and why he was saying it. Good luck to you. I totally agree with you. Had he expressed any sort of faith before this, I may think differently but quite frankly, he hasn't so this is a new thing for me. Doesn't change how I feel about him but it does make me question the validity of his faith because this sudden revelation comes after his mother's request. So I'm not as willing to go along at this moment because it seems like he's trying to please mommy instead of himself. We're going to sit down tonight and talk about it. I printed off all the suggested readings for a Catholic mass so we'll go through them and see if there's anything that speaks to him. That's what this wedding comes down to, finding a way to join us that speaks to us, is meaningful and expresses who we are as a partnership. A church wedding would never do that. When people find out that I'm atheist, they always say they will pray for me. Maybe, you could tell them the truth, and they will be so busy praying for you, that they don't realize that you have already gotten married I am a godmother to two kids. I use that word loosely. There is a former priest who got kicked out because he wanted to get married. He started his own church. My friends' mom comes from a huge Catholic family, and even has a sister who is a nun. She swore that the kids would go to hell if they weren't baptized. My friend didn't want to, but met this priest at a wedding and she really liked the things he had to say, so she had her kids baptized by him to shut her mom up. He approached myself and the other godmother. He asked what religion I was and I outright told him I didn't believe in God. He was good with it and just asked if I planned to raise the kids upholding high standards, morals and values. I said yes, and boom, I'm a godmother to two kids. I really admire you. I could never even begin to compromise in a situation like this. Good luck with the rest of the wedding planning. He sounds like the priest I know and love. And it seems in this discussion with family that the whole high standards, morals and values of good citizenship is being forgotten and being replaced by forced dogma. It's weird to be honest. My family is so much more laid back about these things. Absolutely. And admittedly, as someone raised exactly the same way, I don't understand your problem with that. I attended a wonderful keynote speech recently at our school district's professional day. Dr. Martin Brokenleg was the speaker. He noted that one of the culture differences and difficulties that has existed between First Nations communities and the dominant culture is that for many, many years, they had NO word for nuclear family... family was not just parent(s) and their children... it was the couple, their children, and their 250 other nearest relations...multiple generations. He believes, as do I, that we've lost something as a people by moving away from that. To me, not realizing that their sons wedding IS there day as much as yours is disrespectful to your future husband's family. I firmly believe that yes, we should all consider the impact of our decisions not only on our 'nuclear' family but also on the wider circle, and we need to do what's best for the maintenance of those ties. If that means a church wedding, or driving somewhere for Christmas, or whatever - so be it. So I do feel badly that you are missing out on a wonderful opportunity to honour your future mother in law as one of the elders in your clan by not respecting her wishes. You and future DH are not just joining your own lives - you are joining two larger families. I can't imagine NOT challenging the status quo. To me, that's inherently wrong and misguided. I have never done something because I was told to if I didn't believe in it or see the logic behind it. It is NOT their wedding day. They had theirs however many years ago that they got married. They had their chance. It's ours now. We have repeatedly asked them to participate but they tell us that traditionally the groom's family does not get involved and that they are just on the bus for the ride to the wedding, but in the next breath criticize our choices (for which they are very traditionally not paying for). So really, they have no say in anything because they aren't footing the bill. My parents have generously gifted us for the wedding, yet they are not nearly as demanding. The most demanding thing that my parents have done, was too grill us about the venue policies, and what we're doing for certain parts of the day (for example, it impressed my father that we are being very frugal yet not cheap when it comes to certain aspects and not buying into the wedding industry over priced expectations). They want us to be happy on our terms, not theirs, and that is the fundamental differences between the families. We are joining two families yes, but we have our own family to consider first. We will be honouring our families in many ways at the wedding, including two culturally specific things from his culture one of which I have no interest in doing because it involves alcohol. But FH wants to do them (see, FH not a demand from the family), so we're doing them. I plan to display the wedding photos of the grandparents, the parents and our siblings as a testament to family (I have an awesome quote for the display) but I will not push over and let anyone, even family, steam roll us into doing anything that is counter to who I am and who we are. You really think that starting married life with a lie (ie: a church wedding) is a good thing? I do not and think that's a very rocky foundation to build on. Not to mention, it means that we've opened the doors to let his mother or family push us over in other areas of our lives. No dice. I can see how dysfunctional being a pushover can be. And really, if it went to the extreme that they disowned him for not towing the line, that's fine. My family loves him and have openly accepted him with no strings attached. All my family wants is for us to be happy. On our terms. Not theirs.
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Post by myboysnme on Mar 3, 2015 14:07:10 GMT
As a Catholic who has been in and out of favor with the church, when it comes to Catholics, nothing but compliance with the status quo will do. So there can really be no compromises. It's Catholic Church with a Catholic priest officiant or not. If you were Catholic but now aren't, you're just a lost sheep who will return someday.
Despite the fact that neither one of us was active in church at the time, my husband and I were both raised Catholic from Catholic families and we did baptize our children in the Catholic faith. We are now once again in a period of agnosticism. We married in the church because it was tradition, and I could get credit for being a good girl with my mom and grandparents. I'm glad I did it because it made them so happy and I didn't care that much either way at the time.
What I'm trying to say is forget about trying to do something that will please both sides of the fence - your side and the side of the Catholics. You either go all the way with it or you will always be viewed as still needing a Catholic Church marriage sacrament. And you don't need it or want it. So just plan the wedding you want and be done with it. Because no compromise on your part will be enough until you are standing in a Catholic Church in front of a priest.
I do personally believe that marriages occur between families and the larger community, but I accept that is not the case for everyone. In your case you know what kind of beliefs you have and how you want to incorporate those beliefs into your wedding. Just do that. The Catholics will sit there looking out over the water and feel sad that your marriage isn't blessed in the church. Oh well.
I have a cousin who would not even allow her daughter and her husband to sleep together in their home because they were married by a justice of the peace. The daughter eventually had a Catholic wedding to please her parents and guess what? She's getting divorced now, living with another guy who is also married. Her oldest son married secretly by a JP and didn't tell his mom for over a year and AFTER he went into the military. My cousin is praying her 12 year old son will be a priest. Bottom line - forget about pleasing the Catholics. There is no pleasing them with compromise. Period.
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grinningcat
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,663
Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Mar 3, 2015 15:27:09 GMT
As a Catholic who has been in and out of favor with the church, when it comes to Catholics, nothing but compliance with the status quo will do. So there can really be no compromises. It's Catholic Church with a Catholic priest officiant or not. If you were Catholic but now aren't, you're just a lost sheep who will return someday. Despite the fact that neither one of us was active in church at the time, my husband and I were both raised Catholic from Catholic families and we did baptize our children in the Catholic faith. We are now once again in a period of agnosticism. We married in the church because it was tradition, and I could get credit for being a good girl with my mom and grandparents. I'm glad I did it because it made them so happy and I didn't care that much either way at the time. What I'm trying to say is forget about trying to do something that will please both sides of the fence - your side and the side of the Catholics. You either go all the way with it or you will always be viewed as still needing a Catholic Church marriage sacrament. And you don't need it or want it. So just plan the wedding you want and be done with it. Because no compromise on your part will be enough until you are standing in a Catholic Church in front of a priest. I do personally believe that marriages occur between families and the larger community, but I accept that is not the case for everyone. In your case you know what kind of beliefs you have and how you want to incorporate those beliefs into your wedding. Just do that. The Catholics will sit there looking out over the water and feel sad that your marriage isn't blessed in the church. Oh well. I have a cousin who would not even allow her daughter and her husband to sleep together in their home because they were married by a justice of the peace. The daughter eventually had a Catholic wedding to please her parents and guess what? She's getting divorced now, living with another guy who is also married. Her oldest son married secretly by a JP and didn't tell his mom for over a year and AFTER he went into the military. My cousin is praying her 12 year old son will be a priest. Bottom line - forget about pleasing the Catholics. There is no pleasing them with compromise. Period. I do want to say that I do understand that there is definitely a blending of the families in a wedding. That said, it's not like the two sides of the family will really ever see each other at any time after the ceremony anyway, so it's not like it's a true blending. So that said, I do understand that the families want to be represented at a wedding, but I just don't think it's the family's place to make it theirs. The wedding is about the people marrying and making a family and that should be the focus. Not the demands of the family to be represented. If they'd give us some room, they'd see that we're not excluding them at all. Just representing and celebrating them in a different way than what they expect. And you're right, you're either in all the way or a "lost sheep" when it comes to the Catholic church. Drives me crazy.
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garcia5050
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,728
Location: So. Calif.
Jun 25, 2014 23:22:29 GMT
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Post by garcia5050 on Mar 3, 2015 15:31:10 GMT
Just saw your update. I mentioned earlier that my catholic ceremony was only 20 minutes.it wasn't the plan. I thought it would be at least 35 minutes. My priest was a complete jerk. Something happened at a quincenera 2 hours before my wedding, and he took it out on me. Mid ceremony, he turned off the microphone and quizzed me about the readings, to make sure I was paying attention. I picked my readings, of course I knew, but my husband failed the test. So the priest didn't do any type of sermon, and just did the vows, while very angry and red-faced. While I don't regret having the catholic wedding to appease my mother, I do regret not seeking out another priest. I had no idea I could 'shop' around. I assumed the brides church is the place to go. Oh well.
It sounds like you gave it a try. At least you can always say you tried. Now go do what your heart desires.
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grinningcat
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,663
Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Mar 3, 2015 15:34:38 GMT
Just saw your update. I mentioned earlier that my catholic ceremony was only 20 minutes.it wasn't the plan. I thought it would be at least 35 minutes. My priest was a complete jerk. Something happened at a quincenera 2 hours before my wedding, and he took it out on me. Mid ceremony, he turned off the microphone and quizzed me about the readings, to make sure I was paying attention. I picked my readings, of course I knew, but my husband failed the test. So the priest didn't do any type of sermon, and just did the vows, while very angry and red-faced. While I don't regret having the catholic wedding to appease my mother, I do regret not seeking out another priest. I had no idea I could 'shop' around. I assumed the brides church is the place to go. Oh well. It sounds like you gave it a try. At least you can always say you tried. Now go do what your heart desires. Ho-lee crap on a cracker! I can't believe he did that. So wrong. I'd have a hard time keeping my mouth shut if he pulled that... well, after I got over the shock of what he was doing. Did anything come of him?
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garcia5050
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,728
Location: So. Calif.
Jun 25, 2014 23:22:29 GMT
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Post by garcia5050 on Mar 3, 2015 15:49:05 GMT
Nothing ever happened to him. He remained at the same church for 10 years, always with this crap attitude. I heard that he would shame married godparents if the were not married in church. He would also quiz the 15 year old girls during their quincineara ceremony. And also shame the larger than usual easter crowd. Of course, I heard all this after the fact. I was afraid to talk back during my ceremony, for fear he would stop the whole thing and not marry us.
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hannahruth
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Posts: 2,613
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Aug 29, 2014 18:57:20 GMT
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Post by hannahruth on Mar 3, 2015 15:50:53 GMT
My feelings on this is that if it is for thr MIL then have no part in it. This will be the small edge of the wedge and she will be expecting her way for the rest of your life.
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grinningcat
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,663
Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Mar 3, 2015 15:50:58 GMT
Nothing ever happened to him. He remained at the same church for 10 years, always with this crap attitude. I heard that he would shame married godparents if the were not married in church. He would also quiz the 15 year old girls during their quincineara ceremony. And also shame the larger than usual easter crowd. Of course, I heard all this after the fact. I was afraid to talk back during my ceremony, for fear he would stop the whole thing and not marry us. I can totally understand having that fear. He sounds like a piece of work. A gross piece of work.
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MorningPerson
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Posts: 2,506
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Jul 4, 2014 21:35:44 GMT
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Post by MorningPerson on Mar 3, 2015 15:58:17 GMT
I can't imagine NOT challenging the status quo. To me, that's inherently wrong and misguided. I have never done something because I was told to if I didn't believe in it or see the logic behind it. It is NOT their wedding day. They had theirs however many years ago that they got married. They had their chance. It's ours now. We have repeatedly asked them to participate but they tell us that traditionally the groom's family does not get involved and that they are just on the bus for the ride to the wedding, but in the next breath criticize our choices (for which they are very traditionally not paying for). So really, they have no say in anything because they aren't footing the bill. My parents have generously gifted us for the wedding, yet they are not nearly as demanding. The most demanding thing that my parents have done, was too grill us about the venue policies, and what we're doing for certain parts of the day (for example, it impressed my father that we are being very frugal yet not cheap when it comes to certain aspects and not buying into the wedding industry over priced expectations). They want us to be happy on our terms, not theirs, and that is the fundamental differences between the families. We are joining two families yes, but we have our own family to consider first. We will be honouring our families in many ways at the wedding, including two culturally specific things from his culture one of which I have no interest in doing because it involves alcohol. But FH wants to do them (see, FH not a demand from the family), so we're doing them. I plan to display the wedding photos of the grandparents, the parents and our siblings as a testament to family (I have an awesome quote for the display) but I will not push over and let anyone, even family, steam roll us into doing anything that is counter to who I am and who we are. You really think that starting married life with a lie (ie: a church wedding) is a good thing? I do not and think that's a very rocky foundation to build on. Not to mention, it means that we've opened the doors to let his mother or family push us over in other areas of our lives. No dice. I can see how dysfunctional being a pushover can be. And really, if it went to the extreme that they disowned him for not towing the line, that's fine. My family loves him and have openly accepted him with no strings attached. All my family wants is for us to be happy. On our terms. Not theirs. Even though I'm a Christian and my views on religion don't match up with yours at all, I highly respect your integrity. I might go a step further than you and say that even if your fiancé's parents were helping to foot the bill, they would still have no say in the religious aspect of the wedding day. Religious views are just too important to go along with something you don't agree with just to make them happy. I agree that compromise in many parts of your day will be a good thing. Bringing in family traditions from both sides of the family for the reception is a great way to make everyone feel included. But maintaining integrity in your religious beliefs is too important to compromise on.
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grinningcat
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,663
Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Mar 3, 2015 16:26:59 GMT
I can't imagine NOT challenging the status quo. To me, that's inherently wrong and misguided. I have never done something because I was told to if I didn't believe in it or see the logic behind it. It is NOT their wedding day. They had theirs however many years ago that they got married. They had their chance. It's ours now. We have repeatedly asked them to participate but they tell us that traditionally the groom's family does not get involved and that they are just on the bus for the ride to the wedding, but in the next breath criticize our choices (for which they are very traditionally not paying for). So really, they have no say in anything because they aren't footing the bill. My parents have generously gifted us for the wedding, yet they are not nearly as demanding. The most demanding thing that my parents have done, was too grill us about the venue policies, and what we're doing for certain parts of the day (for example, it impressed my father that we are being very frugal yet not cheap when it comes to certain aspects and not buying into the wedding industry over priced expectations). They want us to be happy on our terms, not theirs, and that is the fundamental differences between the families. We are joining two families yes, but we have our own family to consider first. We will be honouring our families in many ways at the wedding, including two culturally specific things from his culture one of which I have no interest in doing because it involves alcohol. But FH wants to do them (see, FH not a demand from the family), so we're doing them. I plan to display the wedding photos of the grandparents, the parents and our siblings as a testament to family (I have an awesome quote for the display) but I will not push over and let anyone, even family, steam roll us into doing anything that is counter to who I am and who we are. You really think that starting married life with a lie (ie: a church wedding) is a good thing? I do not and think that's a very rocky foundation to build on. Not to mention, it means that we've opened the doors to let his mother or family push us over in other areas of our lives. No dice. I can see how dysfunctional being a pushover can be. And really, if it went to the extreme that they disowned him for not towing the line, that's fine. My family loves him and have openly accepted him with no strings attached. All my family wants is for us to be happy. On our terms. Not theirs. Even though I'm a Christian and my views on religion don't match up with yours at all, I highly respect your integrity. I might go a step further than you and say that even if your fiancé's parents were helping to foot the bill, they would still have no say in the religious aspect of the wedding day. Religious views are just too important to go along with something you don't agree with just to make them happy. I agree that compromise in many parts of your day will be a good thing. Bringing in family traditions from both sides of the family for the reception is a great way to make everyone feel included. But maintaining integrity in your religious beliefs is too important to compromise on. Thanks.
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Post by whopea on Mar 3, 2015 16:53:43 GMT
I totally agree with you on the travel. That would be silly. I wonder if he'd be ok with a rent-a-priest kind of thing. I hope you two are able to sit down and have a long talk about what he really wants and putting his foot down with his mom, etc. I have to be honest here-I'm seeing some red flags waving with his family. If he can't stand up to them on this, I'd be seriously questioning what else he's going to give in on down the road. Because pushy relatives don't just stop after the ceremony-they just get exponentially worse. Especially once/if kids come along. Good luck with all of this. This kind of stuff is why I think elopements or extremely small weddings are such a great thing. We are going to sit down and talk it out. I have a secular officiant to call and we'll meet with her hopefully this weekend. I've also printed off all the readings for the Catholic ceremony so that he can hopefully find one that would work for us. We'll sort this out. I know we will. I'm not scared to stand up to his parents. For the most part, he's stood up to them as well. This topic is just... different. So we'll hash it out. Thanks though. I'm not scared of his mother, or any of his family. They aren't going to change who I am or what I want so I'm firm in that. If they can't accept me, then oh well. I'll sit down, talk to them (I've never been afraid to talk about being an atheist or how I got there) and all I can hope for is that they understand. If they don't. Oh well. That won't change me or who I am. I'm not about to become someone else because they want me to. The only person that matters is FH. From my perspective, this is not just about FH standing up to his family and what they think about you. (Background: This perspective is from the child of two catholic parents that divorced and went on their way happily outside the church, until one of them became terminally ill and wanted to return to the church of their childhood.) Religion means more to some people than an 'umbrella' of a marriage ceremony. I sense that while your FH was more than comfortable with your atheism in concept during your courtship and engagement that now in practicality he is questioning that. Or, at a minimum, his family is pushing him to question that. It's good to explain your stance to his family, but I don't know many practicing Catholics that will understand. I would recommend that you and FH have many serious conversations about how you will handle situations in your lifetime that typically have a religious backdrop. To me, those would be a few holidays (Lent, Easter, Christmas); a serious illness; death; birth of children; family events on his side - Christenings, First Communions, etc. His long-standing religion may surface during these times and you should both be prepared for that.
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grinningcat
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,663
Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Mar 3, 2015 18:30:37 GMT
We are going to sit down and talk it out. I have a secular officiant to call and we'll meet with her hopefully this weekend. I've also printed off all the readings for the Catholic ceremony so that he can hopefully find one that would work for us. We'll sort this out. I know we will. I'm not scared to stand up to his parents. For the most part, he's stood up to them as well. This topic is just... different. So we'll hash it out. Thanks though. I'm not scared of his mother, or any of his family. They aren't going to change who I am or what I want so I'm firm in that. If they can't accept me, then oh well. I'll sit down, talk to them (I've never been afraid to talk about being an atheist or how I got there) and all I can hope for is that they understand. If they don't. Oh well. That won't change me or who I am. I'm not about to become someone else because they want me to. The only person that matters is FH. From my perspective, this is not just about FH standing up to his family and what they think about you. (Background: This perspective is from the child of two catholic parents that divorced and went on their way happily outside the church, until one of them became terminally ill and wanted to return to the church of their childhood.) Religion means more to some people than an 'umbrella' of a marriage ceremony. I sense that while your FH was more than comfortable with your atheism in concept during your courtship and engagement that now in practicality he is questioning that. Or, at a minimum, his family is pushing him to question that. It's good to explain your stance to his family, but I don't know many practicing Catholics that will understand. I would recommend that you and FH have many serious conversations about how you will handle situations in your lifetime that typically have a religious backdrop. To me, those would be a few holidays (Lent, Easter, Christmas); a serious illness; death; birth of children; family events on his side - Christenings, First Communions, etc. His long-standing religion may surface during these times and you should both be prepared for that. Good points. We've done Easter, Christmas and Lent (lent was nothing, Christmas and Easter had no religious aspect of it like going to church). We've dealt with a family death (religious ceremony, he knows I am a donor and want cremation not burial and I plan to put it into writing and get his wishes in writing as well) and we've also done a family confirmation. I attended all the events and behaved myself. Actually it was a good thing I have some background, many of the ceremonies were in a different language! So we've passed all of those and it was never an issue. So it's strange. I'll go along to family events, attend them, help out where needed. I don't need to believe to support my FH or the family. I'm just pretty adamant that we don't do something that is not meaningful to both of us. That's what is important... that this celebration celebrates BOTH of us and who we are. Not being railroaded by one side because that's their "right" way. We will be married no matter what. And it will reflect both of us. That much I know. If I have to go toe to toe with his parents about it, so be it. The funny thing is that the people I would expect to be all insistent, his grandparents, have not said a word about the church. We accidentally had a conversation about faith, they know my stance and they seem to accept it. If there's anyone I want to please, it's them. They are the sweetest people. And if they are okay with us, then that's all that matters to me.
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Post by tinydogmafia on Mar 3, 2015 18:54:17 GMT
I have just read through all the pages here... First congratulations! How exciting! I was raised Catholic. I never questioned any of it until I went off to college. Then I started making my own choices about God and religion. I came to place where (Gulp) I didn't think I even believed in God. And I was ok with that. I met a guy, we fell in love and decided to get married. My parents were so disappointed that I was not having a church wedding. Especially my dad. They made this clear every time I mentioned the wedding. We decided to get married in a gazebo on the beach. I put a lot of thought into it. My family and I were from NY, my husband and family were from Texas. So we were trying very hard to blend two very different backgrounds, and we felt getting married in a neutral spot, that WE felt comfortable with, was the best choice. After the wedding. Literally after, while standing on the beach, my dad came to me and apologized. He told me the wedding was beautiful and it had been the right choice. He hadn't thought so, but after seeing it he knew it was right. I felt so vindicated and validated by that. Even if he hadn't said it, I still would have thought it was the right choice. Why? Because my husband and I made the right choice for US, and not everyone else who was pressuring us or trying to make something happen that wasn't going to. My sharing this with you is so you know it's ok to find your own way and your own space. People will be disappointed. Some will hate your choice and others will rally behind you. Ultimately though, it's up to you and your man. I hated the thought of disappointing anyone. But one of the most adult decisions I made before I was married was deciding that beach was the spot and sticking to it no matter the protests from my family. (And his!) Good luck in whatever you decide. And remember that the day is YOURS and that it will be what you make of it. Weddings bring out stresses we never knew existed! But you have a great attitude and I know you're going to be ok!
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